 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: thereallukasj
Date: 2017-07-15 04:26
I have been looking at possibly advancing in clarinets and ive heard the whole "get what feels best" many times but i am interested in which company has the highest quality grenadilla wood. Highest quality meaning best sound and resistance to cracking. I know that you get what you pay for but i would like a general explanation on what company uses the highest quality grenadilla between yamaha, backun, selmer, or buffet(excluding greenline material). Also any advice on which company uses the lightest color grenadilla because i personally like the color of a more reddish grenadilla (almost cocobolo, propeller, pearwood, or rosewood looking but not quite that light).
Thanks for answers,
Lukas
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Author: DG74
Date: 2017-07-15 04:56
Consider Uebel clarinets! From their website:
"Nowadays almost all mass produced wooden clarinets are made from kiln dried wood. The fast drying process shrinks the large amount of resin in Grenadilla to little gems and leave large hollow chambers. The center bore opens those chambers and leaves a rather rough surface inviting residues, dust and moisture to stay in the clarinet. You know what moisture does to wood. Swollen tenons, cracks, warped body parts. That means for you: warranty claims, administrative efforts, frustration. 5-7 Years naturally air dried Grenadilla wood is the proper way to go to build good and durable instruments."
They stand behind their claim with a 5-year warranty on cracks!
I traded in my Buffets over a year ago and have been playing a set of Uebels (Preference Bb and Advantage A) - I would never look back. The wood is exceptional quality. What really amazed me was the THICKNESS of the wood. Really much more than I'm used to, especially the Preference.
The Advantage A is one of their lower end models, but even with it the quality of the key work, wood, and intonation is better than my Buffet Festival A was.
Plus, I was able to sell my Buffets, buy these, and put some money in the bank!
Their wood is dark though, so you may not like that.
Feel free to email me if you have questions, I'm in no way paid by Uebel but these are the best clarinets I've ever played on!
Post Edited (2017-07-15 04:57)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-15 06:34
A couple of thoughts.
Please don't make the color of the wood a top priority. It's about sound, intonation, stability, and resistance to cracking--unless color correlates with poor quality.
Of course the best clarinet that's resistant to cracking, intonation changes and instability isn't made of wood in the first place. If those are your major criterion, consider a Ridenour hard rubber clarinet, or even a Backun Alpha, or even a Greenline Buffet.
As far as Buffet's wood is concerned, the R13 is made out of cheaper quality grenadilla today than in years past. This is not rumor, it's fact. I think the Festival or higher has the wood of the R13 in years gone by. It's why when Drucker, former NY Philharmonic principal, needed a new Bb that Buffet's US Rep, Francios Kloc, outfitted him with something better than the R13 he had.
It came with a left pinky Eb/Ab level that Drucker asked to have removed.
Quality grenadilla is less readily available today. Nevertheless I'm sure today's Toscas have fine wood, and yet I'll bet they can play or become out of tune, crack, swell, etc. Then again so can other manufacturer's wood clarinets.
Strongly consider an older but well maintained R13 that plays in tune if you want a more stable clarinet. The wood's had an opportunity to settle.
Last night I had a gig where I sat next to a new Festival owner/player who tried new Buffet clarinets from everyone until she found this one to play in pitch, checking it with a well known tech we both know and respect, and bought it this past winter.
Last night, when the humidity was wicked, the clarinet was for all intents and purposes unplayable. She can't get the barrel off and the pitch was all over the place.
This is not to trash Buffet, nor is it to praise them. I imagine the clarinet has to settle in. The wood you seek is much of the problem, although I hear great things about Yamaha clarinets these days--also made of wood.
And this is someone who is normally very in tune, as she was playing the Backun Alpha she got while shopping for Buffets.
Guess which clarinet she is brining to rehearsal next week?
If I were to buy right now I'd also be looking at Uebel's, and Yamahas, and probably (sigh) Buffet's too; but I might consider Greenlines in the latter, or older R13s.
That said, the correlation between wood clarinets and sound (as I've written here all to many times) is, IMHO, as at least as much market perception as reality.
Grenadilla was originally chosen (before plastic was available) because it was one of the cheaper woods to machine (it would break less in production.)
People have associated wood clarinets with quality, wouldn't pay comparably for plastic ones, and plastic clarinets were manufactured cheaply to keep costs/price at a level that consumers would buy them at.
I submit to you that a high quality made plastic clarinet would play quite well. In fact they already do: a Greenline, unless of course people believe that ground up Grenadilla shavings from the conventional product line, mixed with epoxy, give that epoxy magical properties.
The shavings are filler that Buffet would love to have people think offer the clarinet special sound qualities. Its marketing brilliance in coming out with a synthetic instrument that doesn't trash its original product line's materials, by incorporating some of those materials, in an entirely different form into the new product line.
The joke is on us. The wood isn't magic when in shavings, in fact, it never was magic when whole.
Mark my words, as quality granadilla goes away, clarinet marketers will tout new synthetic, lighter stronger more stable, better sounding materials (carbon fiber)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-15 07:34
Dave you mention epoxy as the binder for the grenadilla. Realizing there are acrylic blended/modified epoxies (think commercial paint from Benjamin Moore), I wonder if what Buffet isn't using isn't more a poly vinyl concoction.
It's a moot point, epoxy sounds tougher and makes for a better marketing campaign.
I mention all this to express perhaps Ridenour should bring to market a super high end rubber horn. Silver keys, Eaton (sp?) action, LH Eb/Ab, rose gold post. "The Ridenour Rodéo"...Ok, the name could use some work. It kinda sounds 'boutique' and not his thing. But it would move him into a higher $$$ market. And the end consumer would feel they received something special, not just utilitarian.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
Post Edited (2017-07-15 17:03)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-07-15 10:12
While watching Ancient Aliens I thought I heard them say that aliens will be giving us new materials very shortly not found here on Earth for making clarinets that replaces wood. LOL.
Post Edited (2017-07-15 10:12)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-15 20:25
"Dave you mention epoxy as the binder for the grenadilla. Realizing there are acrylic blended/modified epoxies (think commercial paint from Benjamin Moore), I wonder if what Buffet isn't using isn't more a poly vinyl concoction. "
While I am sure that some chemist might disagree with me, citing the bonding differences and characteristics of Carbon and Hydrogen molecules in epoxy versus plastic versus other Hydrocarbons, IMHO Buffet is making very solid "plastic" clarinets in their Greenline models, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Adding Grenadilla pixie dust was IMHO not only a way to create perception that they are loyal to their wood clarinet making roots, but a fine way to repurpose wood shavings that quite literally served the sole purpose prior of fueling Buffet's winter heating needs.
And if the filler had been from the bin of the industrial wood chipper that made dust out of a few of the dead limbs on my property, I wonder how much different the Greenline clarinet would have sounded.
"I mention all this to express perhaps Ridenour should bring to market a super high end rubber horn."
Sounds good. A left pinky Eb lever maybe..but the silver keys...sadly, they'd tarnish like nobody's business given the high sulfur content of the rubber the instrument is made out of.
"But it would move him into a higher $$$ market."
And possible interfere with his underdog status. I think the Ridenours and Backuns may have a bit of a "Hatfield and Mccoys" relationship that makes Tom not want to sell (speaking in metaphors) pretty cocobolo that morhps out of shape affecting keys and intonation.
But maybe.
"And the end consumer would feel they received something special, not just utilitarian."
Perhaps. The operative word being "feel." But would they actually get something special.
Funny, no matter how you slice it, the clarinet is an acoustical compromise born in part of, even constructed with dimensionally stable material, the nature of a register of 12ths, where that same fixed register key plays double duty in also voicing the throat Bb.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-15 21:01
"...but the silver keys...sadly, they'd tarnish like nobody's business given the high sulfur content of the rubber the instrument is made out of."
===Completely forgot about sulfur reacting with silver. But with countless choices for plating (black ionic plating, platinum), there has to be way to differentiate oneself in the market.
Even for Tom there's potential to tap in a higher end market and still undercut the competition with pricing. I guess I want my cake and eat it too. Give me a superior rubber horn with all the bells and whistles. Make it look and play high end without costing $5k. I realize Tom has no desire for any of this. But there's potential for such an instrument in the market. (Care to start a new business?)
Grenadilla dust belong on the shelf with my unicorn horn powder and pixie ashes.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-07-15 21:24
As a long time player of 60s and 70s era Buffets, I do agree that the quality of wood has markedly declined over the years, especially in the R13 which now gets the 2nd or 3rd best billets of grenadilla.
For those of you who believe in the Greenline myth of "grenadilla dust mixed with epoxy/resin" ask yourself why Buffet has NEVER shown a video of that process of manufacturing.
Give Buffet an A+ for convincing the world to buy a $4000 plastic clarinet.
...GBK
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-15 21:39
I thought Buffet's "Tradition" was suppose to mimic the 60-70s R13. They were exact reproductions of what made them famous.
If true, execution by Buffet has left the end consumer disappointed, again.
No consistency. Its almost like they need to 'clean house' and get some fresh people with new passion in their factories. The tenured makers just aren't getting it done.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: lisseyjj
Date: 2017-07-15 22:38
I've not had that much experience with different brands of clarinet, mainly Boosey and Hawkes, and Yamaha, but both instruments use very high-quality pieces of grenadilla.
I own a 1934 Boosey and Hawkes (model unknown) and it was a family heirloom. I doubt if it's ever been oiled (possibly a bad thing, please don't judge me or my family because of this :P) and there are absolutely no cracks or splits, and no visible repairs. For an instrument of this age, provided it has been stored correctly prior to me using it, this tells me that Boosey and Hawkes used very good pieces of grenadilla. The sound from B&H clarinets, to me, seems to be consistently impressive; in my opinion, if you find the right one, the sound can rival that of one of the best Buffet's for a fraction of the cost.
I've had a Yamaha CSG now for a few months and have been thoroughly impressed by the wood on the instrument. Time will tell if it stands up to regular usage. Its appearance is very nice as well, particularly with the gold keys. The wood is not stained black, so the slight variation of the colours in the grain looks superb. I receive compliments on a daily basis whenever I use my instrument. This instrument, however, does not compromise on the sound quality and intonation.
When coupled with my Rico Reserve X5, Vandoren M/O ligature and a V12 reed, the sound from both instruments is simply outstanding. All of my school's clarinet section stop and turn around when they hear my instruments (not meaning to gloat, simply stating that the wood used on the instruments produces a truly unique sound).
To summarise your question,
Boosey and Hawkes, to my knowledge, are very resistant to cracking over time, even without oiling. They produce a lovely warm tone with stunning intonation given an appropriate mouthpiece, reed and ligature setup.
Yamahas are very good quality if you're looking for a more modern instrument. The higher-end models can have a lovely appearance that is similar to the one you desire. I suppose that because of the reputation of the company these instruments will not be very susceptible to cracking providing proper care. Again, these instruments can have a stunning sound provided the correct mouthpiece and ligature setup.
I hope this info can help.
Alicia
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2017-07-16 01:53
I must've beem blindfolded or something, not noticing the sublimal, neverending debate on wether grenadilla is a decent material or not. Now, here in Germany, we have few excellent clarinet makers that will store their wood at least 5 years - given that in the "good old times" clarinet makers used store it much, much longer, this might be just the minimum to work with. I've already found the answer, at least for myself.
You see, I've made the mistake of buying a Buffet RC back in 2012. I'm not even unhappy, but every day I think about it more, I realise that Buffet (and some other big manufactures) are after nothing but mass-production and maximizing their margins, which I wouln't even critisise if it wasn't for the catastrophic consequences.
First of all, why do clarinets more and more sound the same? That, at least, is what my teacher claims and what I've come to believe too, especially as german and boehm can have such different characters, but this mostly applies to older instruments.
The answer would be computer-guided machining and extremely short production cycles, among with way too young grenadilla. Always. Maybe the Buffet Divine gets something better.
And while there is a huge variety, I could find my RC quickly replaced with some Yamaha or even some no-name wood clarinet, if it wasn't for the decent keywork and intonation, both of which are naturally expected from any instrument - otherwise it's not even worth considering
Secondly, why are there so many qualtiy differences within models, at least at Buffet? Playing a '15-16 RC from some girl whose teacher recommended it too her, I was quite depressed. Why was it much smother? In the end, I didn't have to regret owning my RC too much, as both instrument's tone wasn't stellar, but not terrible either, these instruments just showed too many differences for my liking. Well, it's no mystery any more that the "craftsmen" do exactly 0 real testing of their instruments, so you better go to a big store to do it for them.
Thirdly, what is the definition of a well-made instrument? Is it a flawless keywork, is it an excellent material, is the sum of the all parts more than one single part (sounds better in german, i guess)? Quality craftmanship will always have to live with a certain degree of creativity and compensation for flaws made during the long process of creating a clarinet. This is were mass-production fails, but wouldn't - and in fact didn't - have to, if it wasn't for the continous profit maximiuation. Many companies might have had people specialized in selecting and fine-tuning instruments, but apparently companies can do without them. Am I exaggerating now? I'm afraid no.
My teacher and I are terrified by the "Schreiber" epidemic (a company belonging to Buffet, making german clarints). These instruments have no character, there is 0% soul in them, at least their intonation and keywork are ok (notice something?).
And this, I'm afraid, is the main reason why grenadilla can't express it's beauty any more. So many people are fooled into buying an expensive, wooden clarinet because of their expectations and teacher's recommondations, but does a name make a beautifully sounding instrument? It doesn't, and I won't care anymore whether my clarinet is made in china or out of hard rubber, as long as it plays well. It took my years to be able to discern different grenadilla qualities and timbres of different instruments and the only exceptional instruments I've seen were of small, individual make (i.e. Wurlitzer, Leitner & Kraus) - small businesses with no huge technological possibilities - and still they don't take 3x of what I pay for a "professional" instrument from a bigger company that can easily produce at half the costs per unit, probably even less.
Most people will just recognize the big name and the fact whether or not the instrument has certain features and then, way too quickly spend their money. I did the same mistake.
Also, R&D for more innovative materials is hindered by a terrible conservatism among clarinet players. Tom Ridenour might be changing the game to some extent, at least in the USA.
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Author: crelias11
Date: 2020-01-05 23:06
Which models of Uebels are made in China. I am looking at the advantage or superior to replace my modern R13 that has manufacturing flaws. I tried the Yamaha CSRV liked it, very easy to play, fast key action but played on the flat side and the pitch didn't come up much after 30 minutes or adjusting angle and embouchure. Low notes even flatter. I play bassoon and am used to the pitch going up on low notes. I am 90 minutes away from a Uebel dealer. Clarinet is my second instrument but I'm not impressed with the R13, disappointed actually.
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