 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: monopolova
Date: 2017-02-15 09:50
Hello all,
Newbie clarinetist here (if I even qualify as that). I'm 33 years old and just started afresh with the clarinet about 2 months ago. Things have been going well except now that I am trying to learn tonguing. I feel like this tonguing business is impeding the progress I was making on fingering. I think the frustrating part is that there is just so much discrepant information about what the "correct" technique is. For every piece of advice, one can easily find another piece to discredit it. Some people advocate tonguing under the reed. Some at the tip. Others from above with the bottom of the tongue from the roof of the mouth. Still others will say to just do what you need to do in order to make a good sound. Some say it's to start the sound. Some say it's to end the sound. I actually was doing well with tonging from the roof of my mouth and with the bottom of the tip of the tongue until I read someone say that this will only turn out badly in the long run and when looking to tongue faster in the future.
My tone is beautiful until I start tonguing. I get ugly "th" sounds and raspy rattling of the reed. I know -- I know: my embouchure must be moving. I can't figure out if my tongue is too big or if its my overbite or what. I can't imagine how someone invented tonguing to begin with. It seems so counter-intuitive to destroy the beautiful tone by introducing the tongue.
Anyway, I'm just looking for some idea as to how long it took others to learn this. I'm going to keep on trying, but I was nearly ready to quit tonight.
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Author: Cath
Date: 2017-02-15 13:59
Hi. I'm re learning everything I learnt 40 years or so ago and I was never much good at tounguing . It's hard. But when you listen to some of those players on YouTube , you can hear how wonderful it sounds when done properly. I watched Alexey ? clip on tounguing which was quite helpful and focused on the sound you make in your mouth , rather than where you place your tongue .
Then listen to Martin Smart play - inspiration !
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Author: Roys_toys
Date: 2017-02-15 14:32
1/keep at it, it will get easier and you will either see what each ( probably conflicting) advice was getting at, or decide that's not the way that helps you.
2/ lots of conflicting advice .... Much of clarinet advice is in the nature " this works for me" rather than based on golden rules. You will become a decent player by experimenting until you find the advice that works.
If you need to be a world champion player you may need to find the unique golden rule to solve each problem in the best way. I suspect the most important are (a) start before you are 10 (b) find a teacher who wont allow you to progress other than by golden rules. This may be difficult outside a conservatoire with many hours a week of supervised study (c) have great natural talent.
3/"poor" methods may turn out badly in the long run... I remember thinking this. I think the better way forward is not to worry too much, solve your problems as they come up how you can, and in the future you can always return to see if you now want to go textbook. In my case the extra confidence from knowing I have overcome it ( in another way ) outweighs any negative thought of "unlearning".
4/ how long it takes .... You never stop.
5/ I was ready to quit... That's a main reason I advocate your finding *A* way rather than *THE * way of moving forward.
Hope this helps.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2017-02-15 16:07
I would recommend finding a teacher who's experienced in teaching both beginners and beginning adults. I've done quite a bit of both, and tonguing can be one of the most frustrating things as well as one of the most innate things for beginners. Usually a student will fall into the "natural" group or the "WTF this is making everything worse" group. I have several non-playing exercises I use with students so they can begin to learn the right tongue movements.
Overthinking can also ruin stuff. When you're an adult beginner, whether or not you realize it, you've already been exposed to more sounds than you realize. It's easy to compare yourself to children who are also in the same beginning boat as you and also to assume that because you're an adult you "should" be able to do this quicker/faster/easier/better than they. The muscles you use to play clarinet are not muscles you've used before (unless you're a saxophonist!), and they require time to adjust to what you're asking them to do.
If you can act like a child and (for a while) not care about how you sound, the muscles can refine their movements and eventually improve.
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Author: Cappuccino
Date: 2017-02-15 16:08
To put it simply, the ideal syllable for tonguing is "dee".
Keep your airflow consistent while tonguing. This is *most important*.
Think of tonguing as if it is riding on the airflow.
Alexander May
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFZta2RG4iM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh8O5DC4Tqs
"Looking at art, you're looking at the result of a philosophy." - John Emmett
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-15 18:16
Some of the approaches you describe sound bizarre or are maybe specific to certain players who play in specific music genres. If you read players' description, you might look to see what their playing style is and consider how mainstream their playing style is.
To provide articulation - separation - between the notes you play, you have to somehow stop the sound. You can do this in either of two ways, basically - stop the air from reaching the mouthpiece/reed or stop the reed from vibrating for short periods of time. Most modern players stop the reed in one way or another. Of those players, I think most would say that they articulate by touching the exposed surface of the reed with the top surface of the tongue. It's at that point that you get most of the divergence. Where on the reed surface? What part of the tongue surface?
The easiest way to start gaining comfort is to try as much as possible to imitate what you do when you speak. Use the part of your tongue that feels comfortable when you produce tongue-based consonants ("d", "t") but touch the reed surface instead of the roof of your mouth. The sound will be affected by where on the reed you touch, but that can really be refined later. Anything that cleanly stops the reed from vibrating will work at the beginning.
Many of us think about holding the reed with the tongue, blowing, and then releasing the reed for the first note of a tongued passage. Tonguing notes in a sequence then involves blowing a continuous air stream and interrupting the reed with the consonant motion you've chosen. The continuous air stream becomes more important the faster the notes become.
Katrina makes a really important point - many adult learners want to be perfect too quickly. You learned to speak over a period of years. You already know how to do that, but applying the movements of speech to a reed is a learning process. Some of it is learned by taking advice, some by trial and error. Because others' words may not translate well to feelings you need to internalize, sometimes you have to experiment. If something really doesn't work, leave it and try something else.
The other important point is that, when you "tongue" you're only separating long sounds into shorter ones. The sound still needs to be the best you can produce, so don't change anything in your basic approach to tone production in order to apply any tonguing technique. Always be aware of the tone quality of the notes you play and the consistency of the tone from one note to the next.
Karl
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2017-02-15 19:11
It's great that you have a beautiful tone, but unless you can separate the notes properly, your beautiful tone is going to become tedious to a listener. That's the purpose of tonguing--to separate new ideas from the old ones in a crisp and graceful fashion.
I've found it difficult to learn from books and tips and hearsay. If you were only able to find a decent teacher in your area who could meet with you in person, your frustration would end much sooner rather than later.
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-02-15 19:13
I came back to the saxophone after a 30+ year layoff a few years ago, then I also decided to pick up the clarinet again last year after another multi-decade hiatus.
One thing I have learned is my normal "sax tongue" (tenor) is too much for the clarinet, so I have had to soften my attack on the notes.
The other thing I learned is that even if I am comfortable on the sax, I could not simply pick up the clarinet and be good again on it, too. It took about a year to feel good on the sax and I don't think the clarinet will be any easier.
So every time I get frustrated, I tell myself to "Calm down, it just takes time." There is some great advice in this thread!
Thanks,
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-02-16 18:16
Took me years and years. Learning to isolate movements of one part of the body from everything else is difficult for many of us, and that's what must happen to be able to tongue without messing up the sound. The insides of people's mouths are different, so any ideas have to be evaluated according to your experience. Since it is so individual, it's good to spend some time forgetting about the movements and concentrating intensely on the smallest changes in the sound. The body can sometimes adjust unconsciously in order to produce the sound you want, if you want it badly enough.
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