 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2017-01-30 02:14
My Lafleur clarinet appears to have some friction inserted rod screws that, despite using a small punch and hammer, I am unable to remove. I had used penetrating fluid 12 hours before trying to tap/knock and remove the rod screws but without success - any ideas? The goal is to repad.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-01-30 03:07
I read your other thread concerning friction rods/screws and shook my head at never hearing of them before. That same afternoon I received a Bb 'McMahon' Band Flute from the 1930s or 40s made by either Boosey & Hawkes, Rudall Carte or Besson (according to research) and it had friction rods/screws! What a fluke!
I would say add a little 3-in-1 type penetrating oil and then apply heat. From a torch or soldering iron tip. Always helps shift stubborn screws.
A little bit of heat then try tapping it out again. If that doesn't work, try a lot more heat and then tap again. If that doesn't work add more oil and leave it to sit for a few hours/days and try again.
My Bb flutes rods/screws seem easily removed so far but I only tried 3 out of 5, you only need one stubborn one.
V
Post Edited (2017-01-30 03:09)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-01-30 03:23
It is possible that the rod is rusted inside the hinge tube. If the rod moves with the key this is likely Good luck getting it out. Some have luck with applying penetrating fluid and carefully heating the assembly (not too hot). This can take days. I usually give up and cut the key off.
Steve Ocone
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-01-30 04:41
A shot of PB Blaster has made quick work on corroded screws/rods too. I learned about it from mechanics getting head bolts out engines. Any hardware should have it for $5.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2017-01-30 07:22
oil, heat, patience, repeat. There was a youtube video someone posted on the tech board about getting out rusted bolts on automobile parts with wax and heat. I haven't had a chance to try it out but you may want to look at a couple of those videos.
jbutler
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-01-30 11:38
Is it possible that the rod only comes out one way - probably from the top? (Maybe a part of it is tapered or stepped - check to see if the visible ends in the posts are the same size.) Also, check for set screws or pins in the posts and tube. Can you tell if one or both the ends have been crimped or punched to make it fit tight in the posts? Just some thoughts - I've never seen one.
Dubrossa 22, Do the McMahon rods press fit into the posts or the hinge tube? (Do they spin in the tubes or in the posts?)
- Matthew Simington
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2017-01-30 15:25
Attachment: CIMG0163_a.jpg (230k)
Older instruments frequently have threadless pivot rods: here a Carl Kruspe Erfurt clarinet from about 1880 (photo). These rods are mostly made of brass or German silver so don't corrode and with their hook-shaped end are easy to remove. I am quite happy with them for they are easier to replace than early threaded rods with non-standard threads.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-01-31 00:11
Matt74:
My McMahon flute's friction rods press fit from post through the key's hinge tube into the opposite post. Really just a tapered threadless rod completely smooth (no crimping, edges, points or slots).
Since they are tapered they only come out one way.
And they are static - no movement or spinning in the posts or hinge-tubes. They just give the key a pivot point and keep them from falling off!
MichaelW:
The Erfurt clarinet's unthreaded nickel/brass rods look like the brass pins you find in 18th and 19th century instruments.
Before metal posts (or 'pins' as some people call them) integral wood 'block' keymounts were shaped from the boxwood or cocuswood body itself. The slightly pointed brass pin - which about 1.2mm thick with a tiny hook at one end - is simply pushed in through the wooden 'block' keymount through the metal key the opposite wood mount. No hinge tubes on those old instruments. It is held by friction (and usually grime from old linseed oil).
V
Post Edited (2017-01-31 03:08)
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2017-01-31 00:29
Thanks for all the replies-I will try removal again using an electric soldering iron to apply heat as it would be impossible to use a fine gas torch. The rod screws will only come out one way so I'm hoping next weekend to have success at this.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2017-01-31 03:21
Attachment: Kruspe pins.jpg (324k)
dubrosa22:
I find these small details of technical development fascinating. The younger Kruspe clarinet I have shown in my above posting has nickel silver ("German silver") keys and rods. On two older ones (photo) keys and rods are brass: The ca. 1830 boxwood Kruspe, system Iwan Müller (bottom), indeed has wooden keymounts while the other one, built before ca. 1870, also from boxwood, shows brass keys, posts, and rods.
Post Edited (2017-01-31 03:24)
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-01-31 04:05
I love wood block keymounts, aside from the risk of breaking the wood during handling/maintenance, it is a simple but elegant design. Also no tools necessary to remove and replace keys is a big plus!
I'm surprised to see a 'hybrid' form on your Kruspe clarinets. I always thought that all post/pin mounts used threaded screws and rods!
The oldest post-mounted flute I have is in cocuswood from the 1850s, a Buffet-Thibouville 8-key, it has threaded screws and a Boehm-style footjoint. Buffet was a maker with a very modern design focus, however.
All of my wood flutes older than 1850 have block-mounted keys with simple brass pins. I would like to personally examine keyed instruments prior to the 1790s. My oldest clarinet is only 1920s. I'd love an early 19th century boxwood example one day...
Post Edited (2017-01-31 05:26)
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2017-01-31 22:44
Attachment: Goulding.jpg (313k)
Here a Goulding & Co. London from 1800...1805: the "Classical" 5 key instrument with flat square leather padded key plates, successor of J.C.Denner's two key clarinet.
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-02-01 04:04
Attachment: monzani_third_flute_gsharpkey.jpg (128k)
Attachment: monzani_third_flute_keys_washers.jpg (102k)
Lovely Goulding & Co. Is all that ivory original? It looks very fair and unmarked.
I've an 1814 Monzani & Co. London third flute (F, or pitched in Eb) with Monzani's 'Patent Key' system which was the first threaded 'spud' and washer key system which all flutes these days now utilise. It still uses the typical leather 'flap' keys rather than pads however.
V
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