 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2016-12-01 19:54
Quick question...
if you have 2 clarinets where one has undercut tone Holes and has a polycylindrical bore and the other has no undercut tone holes and a straight bore, in what way would you expect them to sound different?
Ben Shaffer
GSO,NC
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-01 21:57
One sounds like a Buffet and the other sounds like a Selmer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-02 00:02
Well, there are Selmers and there are Selmers. My 10Gs are polycylindrical and undercut. But then, they were based on Hans Moennig's adjustments to the R-13.
Seriously, though, are you talking about earlier Selmer models, or has Selmer returned to straight bores in their modern clarinets?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-02 02:53
Sorry - I was just being silly.
Selmers up to the Series 9 had mostly straight toneholes (some undercutting was done mainly on LH3 and RH3), but the Series 9* and all models since to my knowledge have undercut toneholes and narrower bores than the earlier models.
I'd expect the one with straight toneholes to be more solid in pitch and the one with undercutting and tapering to have more flexibility - but that may not always be the case. Some players find the CT a tricky instrument to control and the R13 a more solid instrument in terms of pitch flexibility on each note.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-02 06:20
Chris P wrote:
> Sorry - I was just being silly.
>
Well, I knew that.
But I'm not sure when polycylindrical bores came in vogue. Did Robert Carre at Buffet design the first polycylindrical clarinet for Buffet (was it the R-13)? The Selmer 10G was originally based on the R-13's design, but what kind of bores do Selmers since then have? Which brands and models over the last 50 years have kept (or gone back to) straight cylindrical bores?
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-12-02 08:52
Robert Carré designed the polycylindrical bore for Buffet in the early 1950s. I have seen several prototypes (without serial numbers) dating from before the introduction of the polycylindrical R13 at the beginning of 1955.
Certainly Hans Moennig made bore adjustments before that time, but each was a one-off project.
Selmer used a conical bore (as in the Centered Tone), with no undercutting as it came from the factory. I believe that the Series 9* was their first polycylindrical model.
The B&H 1010 had a cylindrical bore, as does the Eaton Elite model, which is a close copy. Oehler and Reform Boehm instruments also have cylindrical bores.
Ken Shaw
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-02 18:00
As far as bore size, the Selmers at Clarinetfest had the diameter marked on little cards for each model, and there was quite a variety. Not sure where on the instrument they measure it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-02 22:30
Bore measurements are usually the narrowest diameter of the bore and are measured at the middle tenon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-03 00:15
Well here is a straight forward answer.
Test the Yamaha CSG clarinet. This is a straight bore and for whatever reason they call it a German bore. I strongly disagree with their description. It doesn't sound German at all. The barrel is short, but the sound is not a German sound.
Next play the Yamaha CSVR a tapered bore. Both horns sound very close to the same.
The pre R13 Buffets were straight bores. They too sounded great. I've said this many times. Marcellus played on a straight bore Buffet for years and years. Yes he had R13's too.
I believe there really isn't much of a difference. The bore size is the key.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-12-03 01:12
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> I believe there really isn't much of a difference. The bore
> size is the key.
>
The point of the polycylindrical bore was to correct intonation, wasn't it? It hadn't to do intentionally with tone quality or response, did it?
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-03 14:06
I think I misread the question. With a straight bore and a tapered bore.
I really can't answer the question, other than the hole sizes have to be different. As for under cutting the holes I'm not experienced enough to know the answer with straight bores, but polycylindrical bores often require undercutting. This I've done myself on most of the Buffets or actually all of the Buffets (R13's) I've owned. Buffet has a lot of stuffy notes and problems with 10ths. It's a game finding the right barrel and then a bit scary when you start undercutting. Some of the things you worry about are the key heights that have pads on them. At the factory Buffet doesn't really care, or they don't know, so you have to adjust this first and it can take hours and hours to do it right. You can't really just start undercutting, because once the wood is gone and you've made a mistake, you now have to fill and re-drill. There are a few ways to fix this but with anything, it's best to d it right the first time.
I would think that straight bores need to be undercut as well, probably more.
What was so surprising to me when playing the 2 different Yamaha's was how even every note was and in tune the notes were, on both the German bores and the CSVR's. When I go to the factory next month I'll take a very close look at the tone holes on the CSG's. On the set of horns I have, there is undercutting done to several holes.
I'm still not sure if I answered the question. As far as sound to tone, the 2 different Yamaha's sounded so close together.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-12-03 22:44)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-03 16:21
The CSG isn't a German bore clarinet - it has the short barrel and longer joint idea taken from German clarinets, but still has a French bore.
There is the Yamaha German Boehm (not a reform Boehm) and also the German and Oehler systems which all have German bores.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-12-03 18:05
I know I'm getting slightly off topic here, but I found Bob's comment about tone hole sizes to be very interesting. Back in the early 70s when I was in high school, it was the dream of many serious players to own an R-13. At the same time, I knew several people who had pro Selmers and liked them. I performed in an orchestra one summer, and the player next to me had one. He played very well and his Selmer blended nicely with my Buffet, but the first thing I noticed was that the first (and possibly second) upper joint tone holes were larger than those on my clarinet. I'm guessing he had a Series 9 or possibly a Series 10.
At the time, there were more Selmer Paris dealers than there are now, and if a serious student wanted to go to a music store to try one, it was possible. For some reason, Selmer decided to pull back. In Michigan and in many parts of the US, it's unfortunate that it's necessary to travel or order online if one wants to try one of these clarinets.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-03 22:58
Clarinet guy -
The Selmer's also took larger pads on some of the key holes. So you are surely correct. For example the Selmers ranged from 9mm's on the register key, to 10mm's on some of the other keys. If I recall correctly the 9* in the lower register used 17mm's and the R13's for sure use 16.5mm pads. It's been too long to remember anything about the 10 series. Some pad companies made or still make 17.5mm pads, were these used on some Selmer's, don't know for sure. Maybe on the Centertone horns?
I only messed with Buffets because these were the main horns that people played on and what Moennig taught me on.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-12-03 23:04)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-04 04:05
I've got a 1958 CT and the largest lower joint pad cups are huge compared to any other clarinet I've seen - I think they may even be 18mm but will have to check that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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