 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2016-04-16 07:43
Attachment: IMG_1336.JPG (1386k)
Hey everyone,
My R13 cracked badly in two places in the upper joint. Both cracks were pinned around December, and thankfully never spread into the bore of the instrument. After the repair was done, I could no longer see the cracks and thought the issue was out of sight and out of mind forever!
In the time since the repairs were done, I have been able to see the cracks again. My question is, since the cracks were pinned, is this just a normal reaction to the wood changing over time, or are the cracks at risk of getting worse?
When the instrument cracked, I sent it to Buffet in France to be looked at, and was told that since I had purchased the instrument two years earlier, it was no longer under warranty and that, for lack of better phrasing, they didn't care.
Post Edited (2016-04-16 07:47)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-04-16 14:13
A surface crack should be repaired with fine grenadilla powder and thin marine strength super glue. That way the crack is gone. Pinning a surface crack is a bad choice because not only might it open again such as yours but the pins look unsightly and it might even go through to the bore. Some techs just like to generate revenue at the cost of the proper fix. Beware. I recently sold an R13 to a customer in Las Vegas where it is very dry. The clarinet developed a surface crack in about 2 weeks and i repaired it with the above method. About 2 weeks later another surface crack developed in a different place and again I did the repair and now the wood has adjusted to the climate change and the R13 is fine. No pins. You would never know that it was ever cracked because the cracks are gone. Very sorry that it is to late for you as far as the way the pins look but at this point have a reputable tech use the powder and glue method.
Post Edited (2016-04-16 14:19)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-04-16 16:41
It's impossible to say where it was not a great repair job or if the crack would have opened up anyway. Besides pinning, the crack should have been glued as well, and despite what some others have posted, the viscosity of glue does matter. The very thin glue (available in hobby shops and online) can easily seep down into the crack and soak into the wood fibers. It is also a common practice to enlarge the crack before gluing. this makes it easier to ensure that the glue enters the crack.
I also learned to close up the crack before pinning by letting the crack rest with a lot of moisture. I no longer do this, though I might let it rest for a day or so. The crack releases tension, so I repair it where it wants to be.
If I was to work on your instrument, I would open up the crack (just at the surface and not very deep), glue, fill and finish.
Unless the crack goes through a tone hole you probably don't have a problem. If the crack enters a tone hole, a bushing should be installed. This is basically a piece of plastic or hard rubber that replaces the wood around the tone hole. Some new high end clarinets come with these from the factory.
I've been doing a lot of crack repair and tone hole bushings recently. It is interesting that it didn't start till late winter.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2016-04-16 16:42)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-04-16 17:16
Those are long cracks in nasty places, but as long as the pins keep the cracks from penetrating to the bore you'll be fine. As Steve Ocone says, you'll need to have the top trill key hole bushed, because the crack goes through it.
I would avoid circumferential bands if possible. They constrict the bore as the wood changes with the weather and humidity. I've played several banded clarinets, and none of them were really good. However, Louis Cahuzac's clarinet had a wide band at the top of the upper joint, and he sounded amazing https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1692&bih=907&q=louis+cahuzac. If that's the only way you can save the upper joint, it's worth trying.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Zacharywest158
Date: 2016-04-16 18:50
Thank you all for your input. This repair was actually the third attempt at repairing this cracks, and I think that's why pins were used as a last-ditch effort. It had been glued and filled in with grenadilla powder twice before, and the cracks opened up both times. I take pretty good care of my instruments, and I make sure I let the horn dry out after playing for long periods of time before using dampits in the case.
I've thrown in an ungodly amount of money on getting this fixed, and I don't want to keep throwing more cash at it just to have the cracks continue to open up.
The repairs were done by three different respected techs in the Boston area, so I trust the quality of their repairs.
One of the cracks did go through a tone hole, but a new tone hole was put in.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-16 20:02
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Cracks will be more commonplace in winter when the humidity levels are low, so there's nothing unusual about that.
As for banding, flush banding with nickel silver bands is ugly and they can indeed constrict the bore if they're compression fitted mega tight.
But there's no reason why you can't have it carbon fibre banded as they're only as tight as the tension applied to the carbon fibres as they're wrapped around the slots cut into the top joint and they can be hidden with filler so won't look anywhere near as ugly as flush bands. See attachment for photos of carbon fibre bands once they're done.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-04-16 23:15
With the cracks you illustrated in original post I would definitely have carbon banded from the outset. I only use pins in areas where a band is not practible e.g. when a post obstructs the area.
Carbon bands supports the wood around the entire circumference and so prevent the stress crack appearing in a new area whilst pinning (or just glueing) does not help this.
Needless to say the crack would also be glued but initially with a very low viscosity superglue. Adding wood dust to the glue significantly weakens the join and it should only be used as the final surfacing finish.
As Chris mentions carbon banding does not risk stressing the wood or distorting the bore in the way that metal bands can.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-04-17 09:45
Steven, The only thin super glue to use is marine quality. Strong enough to hold a wooden boat together.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2016-04-17 17:14
Clarineteer,
I use a cyanoacrylate glue that is being successfully used in my trade. I have used some other commercial grades with great specs that did not perform as well. I'm willing to try out another glue if you have a specific brand and it is not too big an investment.
One of the main requirements is a very low viscosity so that the glue can go deep into the crack and penetrate the fibers of the wood. I always keep a fresh bottle on hand as it doesn't stay thin for long after being opened.
Steve Ocone
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-04-17 18:29
>> you'll need to have the top trill key hole bushed, because the crack goes through it. <<
The more tone hole inserts I do, the less I think they are really necessary. Pretty much the same for the more "intruding" methods for repairing cracks.
Cracks are not predictable. A crack might re-open no matter what you do to it (though with some methods, it's very rare), while another crack might not even need a repair and stay the same for decades.
So now what I prefer to do is start with the least "intruding" method and only continue with other methods if necessary later, which isn't most of the time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-17 19:00
I bush split toneholes so should an existing crack reopen, it won't run across the tonehole as it once did before. So that will at least buy the player some playing time instead of their instrument being put immediately out of action due to a split and consequently leaking tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-04-17 23:43
Perhaps silversourcerer would write to Buffet and several other world class boutique makers and point out the folly of their ways in offering Carbon Fibre bands on their top of the line instruments.
As to hide glue on clarinets I don't think their is a single professional level repairer who would countenance it's use on woodwind.
Perhaps there should be a unique thread reserved on this board for all hide glue afficianado(s) to bang on about it's magical properties.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-04-18 01:45
Also my crack repairs are virtually invisible unlike the unsightly repair in the photo.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-04-18 10:46
When using grenadilla powder and super glue you can sand the powder after applying the glue just enough so that the crack completely disappears and there is no sign of a repair at all. It is a difficult task and sometimes I have to do it a couple of times to get it just right to be invisible. Result is the crack is gone and will not open up again because it is not there anymore.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-04-18 19:29
Many of the assertions and assumptions in siversourcerers last 2 post are so wildly inaccurate that the whole credibity is destroyed.
as to the statement re hide glue "but certainly they used it when nothing else was available" is so laughable - just think what surgeons and dentists were using 100 years ago "when nothing else was available" - would you go to one who still uses those old methods? me neither.
I wonder why they didn't use hide glue on the space shuttle and launch vehicles - or did they? - perhaps we can be informed on this too.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2016-04-18 20:32
Silversorcerer wrote:
> There are no assumptions in my assertions that hide glue has a
> track record in musical instrument making and repair for 1000+
> years. Cyanoacrylate does not.
>
Not in clarinet repair. I (and most repairers, I'm sure) have seen pins and bands lasting, without problem, for well over 100 years now - I had unlimited access to Abe Galper's historical clarinet collection. I have yet to see a 100 year old hide glue repair, though I suspect there are some out there - guess I'm just not lucky enough
Hide glue might be fine - I don't know except for your recommendation - but it most certainly does not have the same history repairing clarinets as it does violins, cellos, et al. where dis-assembly is required on a periodic basis.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-18 20:52
Epoxy and shellac have been used before superglue became commonplace in both woodwind repair and also in manufacture where they use all three of the above.
Shakuhachi crack repairs are traditionally done with shellac and also rattan binding in pretty much the same method as carbon fibre banding - and they've been using carbon fibre bands more recently as well as some using superglue to repair cracked shakuhachis.
And that's my final comment on the subject.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-04-19 01:21
Ex-President Nixon is supposed to have heard his mother advise him -
"Son don't you ever give up"
What in fact she said was -
"Son don't you ever give up ?"
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2016-04-19 02:56
Enough of the hide glue/modern methods for now. Things change over time - sometimes back and forth, no less - but it gets just as tedious as the "whats the best reed/mouthpiece/ligature/barrel/clarinet" questions that can never be answered.
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