 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-09 14:50
What's the difference between a song and a tune or are they both the same thing?
Is Mozart's clarinet concerto a song or a tune? Give your reasoning for your answer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-04-09 14:56
Could be called a number, or a piece, or a composition, or a work, or an opus...any number of things really.
Some schools prefer one thing or another. It's for you to determine depending on the circle in which you move.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-09 15:00
There is a defining and significant difference between a song and a tune.
Only the lines are blurred by Felix Mendelssohn with his "Lieder ohne Worte", but that is an exception to the rule where the difference is clear.
And if some schools prefer to use the wrong term, then they should be taken to task for poor teaching.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-09 16:07
I'm glad you came back to re-define the question which is more semantic than I originally thought.
So a song is a tune that can be sung. The first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (or any number of fast movements from his piano sonatas) are "tuneful," but a singer would have an aneurism trying to sing them if they tried.
I liked Leon Russianoff's (bringing back to clarinet) description of music to make things more understandable for his student's: "Everything is either a song or a dance."
Russianoff's description works for everything except "ambient music," which is just slow, non-rhythmic tones that shift over time setting a mood. And for me, that mood is usually grumpy.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-04-09 16:16
A song, by definition, is sung by a singer. A tune is played on an instrument. That instrument may be the human voice, but is more usually a conventional instrument of some kind. The use of "Song" for tune is just sloppy use of language.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-09 16:25
I just wish the YouTube community/generation would wise up to that fact.
Think of a major film theme (of which you'll find plenty written by John Williams) and you're 100% likely to see it listed on there as being a song, even though the chances are high that neither singers nor lyrics are anywhere to be heard in the majority of them.
It seems to have set in the rot which is now commonplace and there have been several instances on here in the past few years.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-04-09 16:41
For me, a song has words and is performed by a singer with accompaniment. Exceptions like Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words are explicitly labelled and produce a certain amount of cognitive dissonance.
A tune is the melody of a song or instrumental piece.
While the two terms overlap, they're not the same thing.
Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is a concerto and neither a song nor a tune. The tune of the first movement is the opening phrase. I think of the slow movement as very song-like and try to play it expressively as if it had words.
Chris - I'm not sure what you're looking for beyond this. YouTube posters are often ignorant of musical terms and try to force square pegs into round holes.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jcm499
Date: 2016-04-09 17:07
I think Ken is right, though the language gets floppier depending on the context. In jazz, we play pieces of music that were written as “songs,” often from Broadway musicals, but we call them “tunes.” Even purpose-written big band compositions are liable to be called tunes too, though. The Mozart Concerto isn’t a song or a tune, although it has tunes in it. I would never call the Mozart Concerto a song, and I would only call it a tune if I were affecting a gentle parody of jazziness, as I sometimes do.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-04-09 17:53
I'm a little surprised that no one has brought in the compositional element. A song is a complete form. Many are A-B-A, some are not, but a song has a musical structure. A tune is just a melodic unit that can be used to put a song form together.
A song, whether vocal or instrumental, is a complete structure. The Mozart Concerto is a concerto, or more broadly a composition or work. The second movement might, if you like, be thought of as an extended song - it's essentially A-B-A with elaboration within each section and a coda. Tchaikovsky's Chanson Triste (Sad Song) is a song because of its structure, as are the Mendelssohn Songs Without Words. Most pop"songs" are songs because of their complete structure. If you're humming the first eight bars of one (or have it stuck in your ear as an ear worm), you're humming a tune.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-04-09 18:03
Professionally speaking "ear worms" are known as "hooks." The more hooks you have in a tune, the bigger the hit. The first 10 bars or so of "Billy Jean" has three hooks in it.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-04-09 19:20
Songs may technically be A-B-A, but many A-B-A compositions are not songs; they are neither sung nor do they resemble anything vocal. There are also solo pieces for voice that don't follow A-B-A, but it's simple and accurate to call them songs.
Mendelssohn in his Songs Without Words meant to evoke the sense of singing on the piano. Others of that generation, like Liszt, did likewise. It was the era of the birth of the modern piano. However, earlier composers also wrote noticeably vocal music to be played on instruments - it's natural to do so. One might easily think of portions of the Mozart Concerto in this way. However, I think it's less appropriate to label it a song than it is to call it a slow movement, or large ternary movement, of a classical sonata form.
In recent generations, the word "tunes" has sometimes been generically applied to any recorded music. Some software programs and music services have adopted that usage, or used "songs" as an alternative just to be different. It's music as a commercial commodity.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-09 19:20
Must be some serious songing problem with the instrument (maybe it's not songed up properly) or they simply just can't play in song.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-09 19:22
Richard Strauss's 'Four Last Songs' don't follow a strict A-B-A form, but they are still songs in the very sense of the word.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-04-09 20:58
I probably wrote my post too quickly. If I'd thought a few seconds longer, I might have used a strophic (ABABAB....) verse-chorus form as a more typical example of a song form. But, of course, not every piece of music in any form fits a single category. A-B-A is also typical of Minuets and other dances. Strophic dances are common. I don't know the Strauss Four Last Songs well enough (I've played clarinet in them, perhaps once or twice long ago) to have any memory of what their structure is, but of course, composers are free to call their compositions anything they want to, and sometimes the title is the publisher's. But my overall point is that a song is a complete form and a tune is a (perhaps) standalone fragment, at least in my mind. I wouldn't call the opening (introduction) of Bali Hai (Somewhere on a lonely island, etc.) a song - it's a tune. The entire number is a song.
But truly, I don't think it makes much difference.
Karl
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Author: kilo
Date: 2016-04-09 21:37
Songs remain songs even if they are only treated as tunes. For instance, I can play "All of Me" as an instrumental but it's still a "song". Tunes can have lyrics added later but they essentially remain "tunes". No matter how many times I hear the tune with Bernard Hanighen's words it never becomes a "song". That's the way I use the terms — I don't think it's carved in stone anywhere.
EDIT: I managed to leave out the tune I was referring to — "Round Midnight" with Hanighen's lyrics.
Post Edited (2016-04-10 12:36)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-09 22:10
Basie's (or possibly Neal Hefti's) arrangement of 'All Of Me' is probably my favourite. In the Big Band repertoire there are tons of excellent band arrangements of popular songs - both as instrumentals or actual vocal arrangements. But (sticking with the Basie motif here) things like 'Lil Darlin' or 'Cute' - I only know them as tunes or 'numbers' and not as songs. Same with Nelson Riddle's arrangement of 'Stella By Starlight' which is a great number, but more people are familiar of his vocal arrangements (or 'songs') sung by Frank Sinatra.
Just venting my spleen a bit now - I get annoyed by singers at gigs as they tend to get all the credit for singing maybe four to six numbers tops when the band do the hard work. Someone asked me at the end of one evening when the singer we had was singing here again - I told him "I don't know, but the band are playing here again next month".
But film theme tunes such as 'Jaws' or 'E.T.' aren't songs as they have no lyrics, although some people such as (or especially) those uploading them on YouTube or wherever insist on calling them songs. I challenge them to sing the actual lyrics to 'Star Wars' or 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' etc. themes if there are any.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ned
Date: 2016-04-10 07:31
Then of course, there are toons. This is a word which, I think, is used in New York (Noo Yaaark)...anyway that how it sounds to us Aussies.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2016-04-10 08:37
I am some respect for bboard for clarinet, but realise that songs are sung and tunes are played. Stop[ this nonsense !
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-04-10 08:41
>> Must be some serious songing problem with the instrument (maybe it's not songed up properly) or they simply just can't play in song. <<
Let me check my songer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-10 13:58
Some of us still use a songing fork when we song up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2016-04-10 15:31
A tune is a single musical phrase used in a song.
A song has multiple tunes, usually. Think of a Sousa march.
Mike
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-10 16:03
I'd rather not - I absolutely can't stand Sousa. But does a typical Sousa march when played by a marching band have any lyrics?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-04-10 17:14
I know words to several Sousa marches, but I have to be careful where I sing them.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-10 18:29
Likewise with a certain Ricketts/Alford march that gained lyrics during WW2 about Hitler's monorchidism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9or6hhjmI
This is an example where a march has later been turned into a song.
Another famous example is Eric Coates's 'By The Sleepy Lagoon' which was inspired by the view across from Selsey to Bognor Regis (where I live).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNac1AXQFps
And I'm sorry, but it has now come to this mistitled ditty (but has the more correct title in brackets) which plagued the UK charts back in 1981 peaking at No.2 spot which it shares that achievement along with 'Vienna' by Ultravox (which is an injustice on the latter's part being held off that spot by both Joe Dolce and tributes to the untimely death of John Lennon):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2v7FQ87SBI
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-04-10 21:15
Nothing's sacred - turns out there's a vocal version of the 2nd movement of Ravel's Piano Concerto. Just heard it on the radio.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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