 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-12 23:48
I'm not a beer drinker. But I think the Budweiser Super Bowl ad making fun of craft beer drinkers can be compared to the reed situation.
I (and I think most clarinet players) would prefer reeds to "just play" with no fuss, like drinking a Bud. Instead many of us find ourselves fussing, sniffing (does a new good reed smell different from a bad one?), examining (are the fibers straight? does it matter?), searching for the exotic (would a reed made from Euphorbia obesa be a home run?). Do any of you get any enjoyment out of the search, like some craft beer drinkers must?
I just ordered a sample of Leuthner reeds. Maybe they'll do better than my Vandoren blues. We'll see. (The blues play fine for me, but only after- on average- a lot of ATG fussing and eventually tossing over half of them. Too much time invested for benefit derived. That's why I'm still searching.)
I hope this thread does not turn into a beer discussion. If so, I invite moderators to edit or delete as needed.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2015-02-12 23:56
I mostly use Rico Royal 2.5 reeds and use the entire box with no problems.
Occasionally I also buy a few Michell Lurie with no problems either.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2015-02-13 01:34
I got no enjoyment from fussing with cane reeds and switched to Legeres quite a while ago.
Same with beer...As long as it's a hoppy IPA I'm happy.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-13 03:42
I had a long and fairly miserable experience with Legeres. Perhaps if I were to revisit them it would go better. But I think my bad times (and a lot of my struggles with cane reeds also) are because I demand they stay ready to play up to C7 ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) , and perhaps other players don't need that. That is, frequently a reed will decide it can no longer do C7 cleanly, even though the rest of the range through Ab6 ![[Ab6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/ab6.gif) is fine, and to me that makes it unacceptable. And then I start FUSSING with it (ATG, trimming, boiling water, whatever) or put it down and try another. I wish I knew whether this is why others are happier with Legeres (play and forget) than I was. I have 1 or 2 lengthy threads here on BBoard about my Legere and extreme altissimo adventures, look them up if you need a cure for insomnia.
Soaking a reed in beer might help you to play "Beer Barrel Polka", or not to care about how the reed is performing (or you).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-13 03:45)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-13 04:04
Do post your thoughts on the Leuthners Stan once you've given them a try.
If Clark Fobes is selling them I would think the good reeds of a lot are bound to be really good, but I hope not just on his mouthpieces.
My interest is in their consistency, even if I have to adjust them like I do Vandorens. Need I tell you that they're not the cheapest brand around.
I'm skeptical that they're the holy grail of reeds or else word would have spread by now, but I'd love to be proven wrong, and feel I have been on occasion.
For example, have you tried the new D'Addario product offerings? I must admit, when the bboard's Mr. Blumberg originally gave us a heads up as to their quality and consistency, it's not that I didn't take his word, so much as his affiliation with the product made me hesistant.
But try them I did, and I believe his statements way back then to be extremely accurate. I'm blown away at how little work I need to do on everyone I've tried.
====
As far as things like double high C is concerned, I can't do it on synthetics, but decent cane, and my stock M15 mouthpiece, no problem. Are you taking in as much mouthpiece, short of squeaking that you can? I find these notes even easier on Vandoren Masters Series mouthpieces.
Stan---I don't wish to come across as snide in any way, and yet I am compelled to ask with humility, could the problem be not so much the reed, but the mouthpiece, reed strength, instrument, and yes, maybe and partially the player?
I'd love to try (portions of) your setup, and you mine to see where fault may lie, and if, to any extent, it lies within.
Please understand that NOTHING I said was meant to be disparaging, and I am hardly the last word in anything clarinet.
Post Edited (2015-02-13 05:26)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-02-13 04:21
I have known a few players who use and really like the Leuthner reeds. Brad Behn also sells them.
BTW- Clark's last name is Fobes.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-13 05:12
Dave, I've bared my soul here plenty, and gotten all kinds of advice of varying applicability to me (but what is helpful might be opposite for someone else reading the threads, and I like that we leave behind useful droppings, LOL)- all I believe offered in the utmost respect and sincerity. So shoot away, you might find something others have missed.
If you've got the patience, you might read this:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=400271&t=400269&v=f,
which is all about my extreme altissimo. Many dead ends, a happy ending though my issues continue at a manageable level. As I said toward the end, I left a lot in there that I now consider worthless- just in case it's useful to a later reader.
And in another thread mostly about Legeres-
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=405409&t=405265&v=f, Paul Aviles gave me some very helpful advice about embouchure, and I'm a step ahead thanks to him. All in the interest of progress.
Leuthners at 2x the price of Vandoren blues would be a bargain if "almost" every reed was a winner. I'll let you know.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-13 06:16
Stan, just so you know, I have read some of your posts on your trials and tribulations with reeds, including an interesting one on beeswax.
Not that you've suggested otherwise, but I think it would be enormously arrogant of me to even suggest a human factor to your frustration if I weren't able to voice such notes across multiple brands (and strengths) of reeds you've cited.
Can I say again: not the last word on anything, much less clarinet.
Of course I don't play your specific setup, nor you mine.
And yes, I've been known at times to take in a little bit more mouthpiece and bite ever so slightly more to get C7 and beyond when in a pinch (no pun.)
Perhaps purists would say I shouldn't.
You're a Ridenour player? I own one and like it, though it's not my "primary. "
No issue hitting these high notes on the Ridenour horn more or less than my Buffet set.
It's a bit of a ride, if not cost, but would you be willing to seek out Mitch Estrin at U of F in Gainsville for help?
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-13 12:12
About the Leuthners: When I met Clark Fobes back in November, he gave me a couple of Leuthner reeds to try. I liked them, but I didn't bother to try a box of them until more recently, and now I'm wishing I'd done so sooner. I've only made it through eight of the ten reeds in my first box, but my first impression is that almost all of them have played exactly to my liking, with only only one or two of them needing adjustment (beyond my usual light sanding of the flat side and vamp to smoothen the reed). In the case that a reed does need adjustment, each box of reeds come with a slip of paper detailing how to do some basic strength adjustments, as well as with a link to their website where you can find a very extensive PDF document full of reed-adjusting techniques for specific circumstances, which I really appreciate. They do seem to need a brief period of breaking in before they can be played for longer periods of time (as the aforementioned slip of paper recommends), but once broken in properly they seem to last for a long time.
As far as playing characteristics go, the first thing that struck me about them is that they play really well from pianissimo to fortissimo without losing sound quality at either end of the spectrum. I'm not sure how to describe it - usually harder reeds play well at forte but become too stuffy at piano and require excessive embouchure effort, and softer reeds play well at piano and require less embouchure effort but close up and sound shrill at fortissimo. These reeds have positive qualities of both - they blow easily, have very clear pianos and very strong, resonant fortes.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-13 20:05
Eagerly awaiting my package from Brad Behn...
Dave- I restarted clarinet in 2010 after 38 years off, and made the choice to go on my own. Here in Orlando there are many fine instructors, several I'm sure at UCF 30 min away. But it was my impression then (and still is) that I'm not really aiming for their playing style. If in 2010, or now, I found an instructor reasonably nearby, who on YouTube had clarinet solos that moved me, and that I wanted to emulate, I'd strongly consider at least some consultation. Even then, possibly it would "ruin" me for some period of time- like a pretty good golfer who is rethinking how much weight they put on which foot while shooting.
All that said, I have gleaned good stuff here on BBoard, sifted from truckloads of ore. I wish I could go back 4 years with the correct nuggets of info and what I know now. I have no confidence that anybody I might have studied with in 2011 could have given me that same collection of information. Maybe I'd be better off, maybe not.
Anyway, I press on. The better things get for me, the harder it is to find improvements. But they do continue, and that's exciting. My current most pressing need (as I suppose it always has been) is to always have top notch reeds to perform or practice on, and not spend too much time or energy or $$ on obtaining them. Budweiser not peach ale.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-13 21:02)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-13 21:43
Stan, I completely respect your right to pursue issues with the clarinet in ways that work for you. The time and cost of consultation on your issues is your (not my) money to spend.
And while this bboard is the single most available source for quality and quantity of clarinet related information at any cost, let alone its free one, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, inherent flaws in the communication model (which is neither poster’s nor this board’s fault) find original posters seeking help, limited by their ability to imperfectly describe issues, have them imperfectly and blindly interpreted by other members, where solutions are then imperfectly suggested by these other members, to be imperfectly deciphered by blind posters.
I get your golf analogy completely, at least I think I do.
Seeking help from a teacher on upper altissimo play, including embouchure and reed/reed preparation ideas, I can envision the bad dream fear that in response, your instructor, in true “Ben Stein monotone” voice, robotically retorts, “if we turn to exercise 11 in Rose Studies Volume 1, an exercise in sharps and flats, we can see that….” (cue Twilight Zone music.) If I haven’t made it clear, this dream sequence incorporates a teacher that ignored the student’s issues, and has 1 go to recommendation for all.
You don’t want to go into such a situation if out of it comes no solution to your problems, and instead, a suggestion of “3 years worth of studies of the fundamentals, and advice to curve that left pinky.” Paying attention to curving that pinky, which never gave you problems before, now finds you even further from your goal.
But that said, a competent on sight teacher can spot things you’re not describing, or even aware of, and suggest improvements, that they can then see whether or not you are actually implementing. He or she can play your setup, or you theirs, and say, “Stan, you’re right, no way could I hit high “C” with this reed or setup your playing on.”
Or they can give you the tough love of saying, “Stan, this is by no means as bad a reed as you report. Heck, I can easier hit the notes you seek on your setup than mine.” Or they can swap out portions of their setup for yours, and vice versa, or try different mouthpieces and reed strengths with you.
Bottom line, this communication model is infinitely better at determining the degree to which, if any, the fault lies within your play, and what minimum steps can be taken to address it; none of which includes a “new swab” (analogous to your golf’s weight on each foot example) as the fundamental factor in overcoming your issues.
But you know this I’m sure.
Stan, you are an engineer by trade, correct? …a man of logic and testing, at least within your work discipline, right? (I word myself this way to leave room for spirit, belief, hope/prayer if those are personal traits that work for you as well.)
You’re not someone who resorts to the state of “the hairs on your back,” in formulating work related solutions correct?
What is it saying to you, as you swap “gear assembly 12” (Vandoren Blue Box 3.5’s) out of a vehicle transmission your designing, because that’s where you think fault lies, for other brands of “gear assembly 12,” some of which seem to address your problem some of the time? And all this is happening while competing vehicle transmission makers (other clarinetists) are using original “gear assembly 12” (even if with a bit of Ridenour's ATG) and getting by?
I’m sure you’ve answered this better than I can. One of a multitude of conclusions would lend belief to the idea that your problem is multi-factorial.
Parts of the solution might, yes, lie with better “gear assembly 12” brands, but also other parts of the transmission, and even a more holistic view that questions the transmission designer’s (your) integration of its components.
I truly hope the Leuthners are everything you hoped for, but logic from your prior testing results tells me to not place my bets there, but rather on you, and how individualized attention to you being the single best way to get you to where you want to be, on all different reeds. It could help redefine for you what is a good reed, or confirm for you that what you thought was a bad reed, is an opinion held by others.
With best of luck intended, and apologies for any band aids I may have ripped off carelessly, especially those I was wrong about removing at all, I wish you happy playing.
Post Edited (2015-02-14 00:18)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-14 21:16
The Leuthners were promising initially, but all 5 I tried went south on me.
I have returned for now to Vandoren Traditional blue box #3. I am still spending too much time on breakin and figuring out which reeds are good in the long term. But playability of the good ones is great.
I still need to evaluate D'Addorio and/or Forestone, in the interest of getting more good play time for the $$ and effort I expend. I'm leaning to the Forestone first, not happy that will cost me $20 to $33. I may have a slightly used Forestone for sale soon. I don't suppose any of you have a used Forestone to sell me?
I've just updated another reed thread, sorry that probably means this discussion will be in 2 places.
EDITED TO ADD- just bought 3 Legere Signatures that were too cheap to pass up. Stay tuned.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-05-20 06:54)
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2015-05-15 01:35
I like to play on my own reeds. Who knows, some day maybe I will make my own beer too...
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-15 09:35
A bad reed will never give you a hangover the next morning. It will however give you great joy to crush it, mutilate it, and destroy it. Then have a beer to celebrate its demise. A great reed is like a great bottle of wine. You will cherish and enjoy it during the short life it has and put a smile on your face. If every reed were great we could never blame the reed when we sound bad. Always look on the bright side of life.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-05-15 20:15
I have a sax player friend who always dips his reed in beer before playing.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-15 22:45
I suppose you could drink beer that had had a reed or 2 dipped in it, especially if it was your own reeds. Might depend on whether your horn was "rode hard and put away wet" last time and/or stored in a musty case in hot humid weather. I remember a time or 2 in high school I hesitated to touch my own reed and mouthpiece, let alone put them in my mouth.
Could be considered a waste of good beer.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-05-16 14:06
Perhaps this question could be better answered on this forum.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mr-PCs-Guide-to-Jazz-Etiquette-and-Bandstand-Decorum/176989928575
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