 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-19 12:44
Let's say a clarinet's low A is slightly sharp and its clarion E counterpart is fairly flat relative to other notes in the scale. Bb and F have the same issue but to a lesser degree, and other surrounding pitches are fine. How would one go about fixing this problem?
I can add the LH F#/C# key to bring the pitch down in the chalumeau register and the LH Ab/Eb key to bring the pitch up in the clarion register, but when playing faster passage work this is not practical.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-01-19 18:03
maxopf wrote:
> but when playing faster passage work
> this is not practical.
I assume you're talking about chalumeau A3-Bb3 and clarion E5-F5. There's not much you can do to correct this. Whatever you change on the clarinet to fix one of the pitches, you make the other worse. You can open or close additional keys, as you've described, or move the pitches a little by embouchure or internal oral shape changes.
For my ear and in my experience, a flat E and F are harder to hide or compensate for than sharp A and Bb. For one thing, it's easier to bring a pitch down than it is to raise it with oral adjustments, and opening keys to sharpen those notes is apt to make them too sharp. For another, your sound is a little more prominent in the clarion register.
But in fast passage work these problems tend to be less critical. The notes go by too fast to register as sharp or flat in a fast passage.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-19 18:26
Are you sure you are not "biting" and using a longer barrel and or a flatter mouthpiece to compensate? If you are able to re-adjust what you are doing so that the fourth space "E" sounds in tune while you play "easy" (with both upward AND downward adjustment available to your embouchure), then the "A" second ledger below the staff will be more in-tune as well.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-01-19 20:09
Yes, I overhauled and tuned a Tribert clarinet with the same problem. By reaming the barrel to be like a Moennig barrel, the situation was corrected. The reamer was home made.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-19 22:45
More background info: The clarinet is a Buffet "Pre-R13" that was given to me by a family friend and which I just had restored to playing condition. I'm pretty sure it's a result of the P-R13's different bore design, as I have not had this problem on modern clarinets.
The issue is not that an entire register of the clarinet is out of tune, which would suggest that I'm doing something wrong with my voicing/setup, but rather that one or two specific notes are out of tune relative to surrounding notes. If I trill from clarion E to F# it's quite obvious that the interval between them is too wide, and if I trill from clarion E to D it's also obvious that the interval is too small. I will try your suggestion though Paul Aviles.
I will try a few different barrels today to see if any of them alleviate the issue.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-01-19 23:44
This is quite a common tuning aspect on some clarinets of the 1930/40s era design.
I believe it was in part caused by compromises of bore size and undercutting to achieve a better tone quality. Usually there is quite extensive undercutting on the RH joint and especially the finger holes.
Smaller parallel toneholes seem less prone to this tuning problem.
I often see references to the fine sound quality of many of these earlier clarinets and guess it's hard to have your cake and eat it too.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-19 23:48
Just went through the lower joint notes with a tuner in both the chalumeau and clarion registers. I held the note for a moment without looking at the tuner so as to let the note settle in, then wrote down the deviation in cents.
The results in cents were actually slightly different than how I had heard the notes when practicing without a tuner - low B and Bb are actually more out of tune than low A is. Clarion E is still weird though - it's the only flat note surrounded by sharp notes.
This was done with a 67mm Clark Fobes Bb barrel by the way, with all notes played around mf-f.
Chalumeau:
C: +/- 1 cent
B (sliver key): +4 cents
B (m. finger): +13 cents
Bb: +10 cents
A: +7 cents
G#: +8 cents
G: +/- 1 cent
F#: +2 cents
F: -6 cents
E: +1 cent
Clarion:
G: +6 cents
F# (sliver key): +3 cents
F# (middle finger): +4 cents
F: +2 cents
E: -5 cents
Eb: +5 cents
D: +/- 1 cent
C#: +8 cents
C: +4 cents
B: +7 cents
Post Edited (2015-01-19 23:54)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-20 00:08
Norman Smale: Indeed it is a nice-sounding instrument, regardless of the tuning issues. Luckily the issues aren't major enough to render the instrument useless - I'm able to adjust with voicing and extra keys, though it takes more effort than usual.
It was purchased sometime around 1947 (serial number is 28xxx), played for a few years, then put away until quite recently, although at some point it must have undergone servicing because there were newer cork pads on it. The original owner of the instrument, a family friend's mother, took lessons from Mitchell Lurie, and it's quite possible that he helped her pick this instrument.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-01-20 00:42
The problem may be worse on pre-R13s, but I think even modern R13s suffer from these symptoms to an extent. The A/E difficulty seems present in particular on A clarinets. As has been remarked, tuning errors are more noticeable on the higher note, so you really must have this close to being in pitch. But if that 12th is on the narrow side (as it tends to be), you should aim to have the E slightly on the low side (but within the small tolerance where you can lip it up), so that the effort to flatten the A is minimised - by filling the hole a little. Regarding the A, you need to get in the habit of keeping the 3rd RH finger close to the G/D hole when playing the A at pp dynamics, when sharpness at the bottom is a particular problem. That plus a looser embouchure should deal with the tuning without undesirable extreme measures such as adding a key.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-20 05:21
Yes, I've noticed this problem on my Buffet R13 Prestige A but to a much lesser degree. I have learned to shade low A either with the pinky F# key or with my 3rd finger.
(The instrument used to belong to my teacher and was selected by her, so it's very good tuning-wise.)
I have discovered that A above the staff is also flat on the Pre-R13, but its low D counterpart is flat too so it should be a simpler fix. Those are the only notes on the horn I've noticed being particularly out of tune (well, throat Bb, but that's to be expected.)
I'm hoping that the repair tech I usually go to can bring the pitch up on these notes.
Post Edited (2015-01-20 05:24)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-01-20 05:37
Yeah "maxopf," I apologize. I did not realize the vintage of your horn. I have a Boosey 1010 Bb that has a similar issue, but mine is clearly a large bore horn with large bore problems.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-20 06:06
No worries, I wasn't specific about the vintage at first.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-20 10:13
Interesting... I just played the clarinet for my teacher, and she seemed to think the notes were actually okay. I played slow chromatics from the lowest E up into the altissimo with her watching a tuner, and she said they were all within a perfectly acceptable range of deviation (with low F being an exception, but she said it wasn't too big of a deal.)
I think part of the issue is that my other instrument plays sharp on those notes, causing me to perceive them as being flatter on this instrument than they actually are.
She thinks, and I agree that, the instrument's scale is actually better in tune with itself and the tone is nicer than the instrument I've been using up until now... Perhaps this will become my primary instrument.
Post Edited (2015-01-20 10:17)
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