 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-19 14:24
We've had many threads here recently about the merits and drawbacks of various brands/models of clarinets, but I was hoping we could look at the issues in a more generic way. My question is: When shopping for a new clarinet, GIVEN that certain characteristics can be altered by other factors or equipment choices, what are the really important parameters that cause us to choose one clarinet over others? Let me elaborate:
(a) Tone quality ---- This is highly dependent on choice of mouthpiece, reed, and (maybe to a lesser extent) ligature; so, if we can create a broad range of tone qualities by adjusting those relatively inexpensive items, then how important is the tonal contribution of the clarinet itself?
(b) Intonation ---- Many clarinet intonation problems that are isolated to a particular note (and usually its 12th) can be readily corrected by a good technician. Other more general intonation flaws can sometimes be easily corrected by the simple expedient of pulling out/pushing in the barrel, changing barrel design or length, or pulling out slightly at the bell or between the main body joint. If this is so, then how important is the intonation of a clarinet, as received from the factory, with the standard barrel and everything pushed all the way in (which is probably how most of us would test-play a new clarinet)?
(c) Response ----- As with 'tone quality', a clarinet that is too resistant for the player, or too free-blowing, can usually be compensated for in part or completely by changing to a suitable mouthpiece, and possibly also by changing reed strength. A different barrel can also make a significant difference. So should we accept or reject a particular clarinet based on the parameter of response, knowing that we can modify it cheaply by changing other things?
I hope this question isn't too obtuse, but it's very easy to not see the forest for the trees sometimes. I wonder how many good clarinets have been rejected by potential buyers because some easily-modified or corrected perceived "flaw" or deficiency existed? In an ideal world, maybe, a person could have a new clarinet custom-regulated (and fitted with a more personalized set of mouthpiece, reed, barrel, and ligature accessories) BEFORE purchase --- I'll bet a much higher percentage of clarinets would be bought.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-19 15:00
In my above question I forgot a fourth characteristic:
(d) Keywork ---- The feel of a clarinet depends quite a bit on how well it fits our hands, how readily the keys can be moved by our fingers, and the frictional characteristics of the key metal (plating, etc.). Some of these characteristics can't be changed but some can.
Some examples:
A thumbrest can be relocated to be more comfortable; the l.h. pinky levers can be bent slightly (inward or outward) to be more easily reached; the sliver keys can be thinned (narrowed) so as to be less prone to being accidentally touched by adjacent fingers; and the bridge keys can be bent (in the horizontal plane -- angled, if you will) to alter the rotational relationship between upper and lower joints. Again, all these things can be easily done by a technician to customize a clarinet to the player. So should we be overly concerned with the initial feel of a clarinet we're trying out?
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Author: jan
Date: 2001-04-19 15:24
i just got a new clarinet a few months ago. im not sure if this was the best way to choose the one i did, but i liked the feel of it in my hands. the placement of the tone holes and keys must have been just slightly closer than the other models and it felt more natural in my hands.
just a few weeks ago i was comparing my old clarinet to my new one to find out just exactly where the difference is becuz everytime i pick up my old clarinet now i hate it. i found that the post just under the right hand keeps getting in my way of pressing the keys. i noticed the keys are slightly lower than the post..(maybe it can be adjusted?) and on my new clarinet they are slightly above the post so the post doesnt get in the way and feels more comfortable to use.
im not sure this is THE most important characteristic but if you like everything else equally when trying different brands it may come down to comfort.
jan
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Author: Graham Golden
Date: 2001-04-19 15:33
Dave,
Very Interesting to say the least!!!
It seems that it is conceivable to make any instrument that is sturdy, and isn't tuned in say 457 play like a dream. It seems to me there should be some things a company does do on their own. General key ergonomics, Good overall intonation, etc. Also can't tone quality be attributed somewhat to the instrument itself??? does not bore design have an effect on the tonal and responsive characteristics on an instrument??? It seems that placement and size of tone holes can also have some effect on the actual timbre of a particular note. I'm looking forward to a world where they fit a clarinet to you, that would be wonderful!!!, but I do think that some things are hard to change, some characteristics of an instrument. I also think some things the factory should be responsible for. If a company started turning out instruments and they figured the intonation, key ergonomics, and tone and response would all be regulated by a repair tech then I think we would have somewhat of a problem. ( unless you were a repair tech
Graham
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-04-19 16:09
I agree with some of the things you are saying but here is a few arguments
(a) Tone quality: Try a few different horns and you will definitely hear tone difference. Sure you can compensate by changing mouthpiece/reed/ligature/barrel but you only compensate.
(b) Intonation: I agree with you, if the instrument is not terribly out of tune it can be fixed by a ggod technician or by you if you know when to lip that note up ;->
(c) Response: There I disagree completely. Teh shape of the bore placement of holes, undercut or not, will give an instrument a great feel. Sure reed mouthpiece will help but really if the clarinet does not want to play it won't...
(d) Keywork is important, but not crucial to me as long as it works properly.
The bottom line is that if you do all the adjustments you propose you probably invest as much money as if you had bought a good instrument in the first place...
-Sylvain
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-04-19 16:37
Dave - I'm very pleased you initiated a thread to discuss individually and collectively the characteristics we employ to "choose" what clar we play for what purpose, orch, band,small groups or the differing types of jazz. I certainly "customize" my best horns, such as by relocating thumb-rest and using a cushion, using mp cushion, bend C#/G# and sliver key touches [all to my liking] and extend [on bass] the alt.Ab/Eb lever, increase pad-tone hole clearance to "clean-up" stuffy notes and if needed clean [or carefully enlarge] a notoriously-bad tone hole [such as the C#/G# and/or the trill-key Eb/Bb] . When I work up a clar, even for an early student, I try to sort out the problems and suggest [and get approval] for small changes , beyond manufacturing "mistakes". I see I've gone on at length, but wanted to throw out a few thots by a "semi-pro". I still would leave bore modifications and tone hole undercutting to our few real experts!! Don
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Author: Sue B
Date: 2001-04-19 17:19
Very interesting question.
I just bought a new clarinet. I decided to go for a Buffet R-13.
Let me start by saying that I own two other clarinets. A very old Getzen (yeah the Brass guys) wooden clarinet and a plastic Bundy that I bought off ebay just to try to get some practice.
I did not know how bad those instruments were until I tried a good instrument. I had compensated for years and never knew it. I guess I would say if you KNOW the instrument is basically reasonably good to start with that the changes you describe are cool.
In my play testing I never even considered trying to use the standard mouthpiece and ligature that came with it. Too many rumors that these standard items are not that good. In fact they are still in the original plastic.
I did test using a Vandoren B-45 mouthpiece that I had recently purchased with a Rovner ligature. Just the mouthpiece and ligature change did make a huge difference on my old instruments.
I did use a tuner just to see if in general the instrument seemed to be in tune and stay in tune or what I had to do to stay in tune - pull out or change my mouth or whatever....
Since getting back into clarinet playing I noticed that there are a lot of gizmos out there that are supposed to provide improvements. I am a tinkerer by nature so I have to try toys. When I go to K-Mart to get my fishing license I ALWAYS buy some new sure fired thingy to catch fish. So why would this be any different for my clarinet.
I see other ligatures and maybe other mouthpieces and barrels in my future.
I wouldn't have a problem needing to customize the items that you describe. Everybodies hands are different and small adjustments seem normal to me. I have not made any yet but I would be willing to add extra keys if my playing required it or have others ground down.
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-04-19 18:14
As a beginning player, I think the most important quality is the degree of resistance from one note to the next.
The horn I play the most has very similar blowing characteristics in each register, and very small differences in resistance across both breaks.
I tried the Selmer Signature and loved the sound, it was just too much of a chore to play the damn thing (for $2000, I'll stay with my Master Model) the tuning, timbre and response of it notwithstanding.
Pretty keys are pride points, big names help resale, but what really makes a difference to me is that the horn is not an impediment to making music ("Mary had a little Ham", "Oh no Miss Lucy" and others being what they are).
As a secondary factor, the horn should be ergonomically right. This can only be set over a period of time. Having everything where I can reach without strain ties into the first premise.
anji
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Author: Ed
Date: 2001-04-19 18:54
I think that my top 3 qualities would be responsiveness, tone quality & ergonomics.
Without them practicing isn't fun or rewarding and I need those benefits to get me through times when I'm struggling technically or musically with a piece (which is usually all too often!).
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Author: jerry
Date: 2001-04-19 21:58
Another potentially long thread and one I enjoy reading.
My 1 1/2 cents FWIW.
I could have quoted Anji here (but Mark might not appreciate all the double talk). As an almost veteran beginner, I have fiddled (is that a good word on this BB?) I mean played around with this Vito of mine for almost 7 months, and hanging out on this BB a little longer than that. As I have mentioned before, until I was allowed to play my instuctor's R13, I had no idea how much difference there could be in the "feel" and responsiveness of an instrument. I don't necessarilly aspire to having a Buffet (all a long I had been rather fond of LeBlanc - don't ask me why; I never tried one) but I'm like most, I would like to have a nice wood clarinet.
I guess I have not been around long enough to "see" what is ment by intonation, tone quallity, dark, bright, etc. If it blows easily and is comfortable with responsive keywork it suites me for the moment. I am sure that most of you experienced players out there can tell the difference in the sound of the *same* note from one horn to another. And, because of that you are able to play with *confidence* and thereby perform better. The way one perceives himself seems to be a large factor in how one selects *the* instrument.
As a novice I cannot tell the difference from one horn to another (maybe the player - by style - but not the horn). In fact, while listening to clasical music on the radio (or CD) I have a dificult time picking out the clarinet from the other orchestral instruments (unless of coarse there is an obvious clarinet part in the arrangement), so how can one (the audience) possibly tell if one of the clarinets does not have the right *intonation* (or whatever)? Unless, of coarse someone is out of tune, and can that not be adjusted?
As I say I appreciate "art" and would love to have a beautiful, well crafted wood clarinet. However, I guess I am too naive to hear the difference between a wood one and my Vito. I did like the "feel" of that R13 though, hummm.
~ jerry
Still in clarinet Boot Camp.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-04-19 22:25
Dave -
I agree with what you say, but when you evaluate an instrument, you have to go in a certain order.
(1) INTONATION. This is by far more important than everything else combined. A clarinet that plays out of tune is useless, no matter how fine its other characteristics. While intonation is of course affected by mouthpieces and reeds, and slight errors can be adjusted, the intonation of an instrument has to be very nearly perfect to begin with. Bring an electronic tuner and a friend to watch it, so you won't make adjustments to accommodate flaws in the instrument. Be ruthless. If you have a dozen new clarinets in front of you, you can probably eliminate half of them on this criterion alone.
(2) EVENNESS OF SCALE. Each note must be just as loud and have the same color as the ones on either side of it. You must be able to play without notes popping out or being dull. Test by slowly playing small segments of a chromatic scale -- 4 or 5 notes at a time. Again, after-market tweaks can make small improvements, but it has to be right at the outset.
(3) QUICK RESPONSE -- the ability to make wide slurs without blips, begin any note cleanly and move from note to note quickly and seamlessly.
(4) OTHER QUALITIES. Only when you eliminate instruments that don't have the first three qualities can you go on to the rest. In no particular order, I think of beauty of tone, flexibility of tone (i.e., the ability to make many good tones), a comfortable amount of resistance and physical ergonomics.
(5) FINAL DECISION. Finally, you depend on gestalt -- how well the instrument accommodates to how you play -- how much it lets you find new ways to play. An instrument can have every quality described above and still not reach out and embrace you. You need to feel good when you play it. It needs to feel like an extension of your body and breath.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-04-19 22:31
If you get a chance to get around decent recording equipment try recording yourself using both instruments.
I think you might be surprised by the difference in sound.
As for tone, color. It is very personal, and I am sure that you already have your favorite player that you would like to sound like.
Of course any non clarinet player even a professional musician will just tell you that you sound like a clarinet, but hey if buying that very expensive horn makes you happy, why not?
-S
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-04-20 00:28
I have seeked a clarinet with 'everything' you itemized although the proportions of the 'everything' may have changed. Recently I came to consider the 'everything' should be based on with barrel and mouthpiece specially matched to the clarinet and overall customization. Choosing by priority system seems to bring about frustratoin in the long run.
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Author: Danielle
Date: 2001-04-20 00:57
the clarinet that i use-the old buffet-i absolutely love for two reasons: one, the tone quality is outstanding. i used to get comments on my tone from everyone last year, when i had a plastic clarinet rented from my school, but i believe that since i got my buffet, i sound better than ever. also, it just "feels right" in my hands: everything fits, it's hard to describe but you guys know what i mean...those are probably the two more important things to me about my clarinet ...
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-04-20 12:59
I really like the adjustable tumb rest idea. People have such different sizes and shapes of hands. One size fits all doesn't work. It would be better to have the adjustable thumb rest built in because I would rather not have somebody chop into my clarinet to modify it later not knowing how it might affect the tone or stability of the wood. I don't have a wood clarinet yet but I am giving all this a lot of thought preparing to buy one, and I think this is a very interesting thread.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-20 14:44
Just a few comments:
1. Many have mentioned "feel". I consider the elements of feel can be identified, and consist of items such as the following:
a). Pads not too soft and not too firm.
b). Pads fitted so that they close with light finger pressure. This is actually very rare on new instruments, especially for the keys that are normally open. Anji mentioned "very small differences in resistance across both breaks". This 'resistance' is almost certainly pads &/or linkages (involving pinkies and right index finger) not adjusted right. A prime symptom is that left hand (middle line) B is less reponsive than right hand B. This lack of responsiveness can be quickly corrected.
c). Linkages correctly adjusted.
d). No binding pivots. Binding is remarkably common in new pro instruments. (A cheap band-aid by repairers is to leave the p[ivot rod of binding pivot tubes loose, so the pivot rods turn in the posts.)
e). Needle springs sufficiently long and slender and pointed to have low friction, and no great increase in tension over their travelling distance.
f). Ring keys at a suitable height, about half a millimetre higher than the tone holes.
g). Low friction materials everywhere there is a rubbing action in linkages. Geometric design to minimise rubbing.
h). Flat springs lubricated and with set-up geometry such that they do not need to be too thick, most of their length is 'free' to move, and so that there is a minimum of movement along the instrument body.
i). Ergonomic layout of keys.
etc, etc, etc
In a major overhaul most of the time is dedicated to putting right such items as these. It is my experience that well overhauled instruments (of reasonable quality) all 'feel' very similar indeed. It is just a pity that so many (even pro) instruments have to wait for the major overhaul to get these things right.
2. On top instruments tuning idiosyncrasies tend to be small. They represent compromises in acoustic design which, for this instrument, are very complicated indeed. They can possibly be improved upon by a knowledgeable clarinet acoustic engineer specialist. These animals are very rare indeed; most 'repairers' (and plauyers) are likely to do more damage than good if they attempt to modify these compromises.
3. Stuffy sounding notes can nearly always be dramatically improved by a quick alteration to venting, "ironing" a pad, shaping a register cork pad, etc.
I agree with Dave's point that many of the things we base our selection on can be corrected if they are not ideal, but this can be a long expensive job, and reliant on the difficult job of locating the required expertise. Therefore it is good to have things pretty much right at time of purchase. It is just such a shame that so many makers are content to lose sales because of those little things which are so much easier and cheaper to get right at manufacture than to correct later. As production costs are cut more and more I expect there will emerge a manufacturer who has relentlessly pursued perfection in quality control as an investment in reputation well into the future. In this regard I consider there are some disappointments from the big Western makers at present.
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Author: David Kinder
Date: 2001-04-20 18:49
For me, when I try out a new clarinet, I check to see how it "feels". Does it feel good just to hold it. (Just with that, I've eliminated Buffet International, Leblanc Sonata and Esprit. I just don't like them.)
Then I play chromatic scales up and down the instrument to see it's responsiveness. Does every note come out clearly? Are the mechanisms good enough to allow me to do 16th note runs? How is the tone quality. (I was really impressed with the Yamaha SEV doing this (even with it's stock mouthpiece!) Unfortunately, this particular dealer was charging $3199 for it. What a rip! That's Jim's Music Center in Irvine, CA.)
Then I try to play some music that I've been working on and know pretty well. My favorite is Handel's Messiah. I'll try some of that and see how I like the sound, mechanisms, etc.
Just what I do to try out some clarinets. I'm sure that I'm not nearly as thorough as I ought to be, but it's what I'm comfortable with.
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Author: joseph o'kelly
Date: 2001-04-20 22:21
That it works well with the owner in giving them a good sound.
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