 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-01-27 01:02
Premise:
Maybe the subject title is one new players might say.
To point: the clarinet is hard enough an instrument for someone to learn, that the notion of new students using cane reeds, given all of arundo donax's propensity for unconsistency, and the advances in synthetic reeds, is silly.
At this point in time, new student training should, given the state of evolution of synthetic reeds, involve them only.
Defend/Reject.
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I'll start the first few rejections.
* "My dad learned how to drive on a stick shift (a metaphor for cane reeds), he taught me how to drive on a stick shift, and dag nabbit, YOUR gonna learn on a stick shift."
* "How will we possibly know if the student is really interested in clarinet unless we make them suffer?"
* "How can anyone truly appreciate the clarinet if not first brought to tears at the eneptness if their initial playing?"
* How can we truly get students to appreciate that once in a lifetime cane reed unless we make them suffer first?
* "How will we hold our proud torch if ANYONE can play clarinet!?"
* "Kids will say--people played on WOOD reeds? Yeah, and I suppose you had no text messaging growing up either."
* "Isn't there an app for that?"
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-01-27 06:09
Hilarious! I wish synthetic reeds are cheaper and easier to test though. I will need to find out if the local shop in my city will let me try / swap them.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2014-01-27 06:24
(Disclaimer - I make and sell reeds)
In a perfect world it might be better for a student to learn to play the clarinet on a synthetic reed because of consistency but the student must first be taught how to take care of a reed, seat it correctly on the mouthpiece, and avoid chipping or cracking the tip of the reed. A parent will not buy too many expensive synthetic reeds before opting to buy lots of cheap cane reeds. I guess that fixing and adjusting reeds is a much later second tier learning experience but it comes in handy along the ascending slope of learning to play the clarinet. Oh, I forgot that a good functioning clarinet may be upmost important too.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-27 02:17
The premise seems to be that synthetic reeds are better than cane.
Nonsense.
And wouldn't it be better if we just taught students the guitar since they'll probably never make money as a clarinetist and probably only listen to pop music anyway?
Nonsense
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-01-27 07:26
The Doctor wrote:
> A parent will not buy too many
> expensive synthetic reeds before opting to buy lots of cheap
> cane reeds.
Bingo! This is the main argument against Russ's premise - except that after they buy the second expensive synthetic reed (and let's stipulate that it needs to be a high quality one), many parents will simply pull the kid out of lessons when a third becomes necessary rather than buy cheaper cane reeds.
Kids can manage to break anything - I doubt that the tips of synthetic reeds are impervious to their more destructive talents. Has anyone tried dragging one against his shirt (or someone else's)? Will they really hold up indefinitely when crammed not in a reed holder of any kind into a clarinet case along with a tube of cork grease, a rumpled up swab, a couple of candy wrappers, maybe a lyre (in middle school for local parades) and whatever else they may dump in there? Or left on the mouthpiece with no cap (I did have one - I don't know where it is) so it can knock around the mouthpiece compartment (I know - it isn't good for the mouthpiece either)?
Many kids break more reeds than they wear out, and I don't believe synthetic reed materials would do anything much more than stave that off a little longer.
So, when the synthetic becomes not only more reliable but indestructible....
Karl
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-27 07:28
Given that they will likely be using cane reeds for the rest of their lives it seems sensible for them to start now.
Cane reeds may be troublesome, but hey, so is learning to play the clarinet.
And I have news; plastic reeds will never replace cane reeds at the highest levels of clarinet playing.
bruno>
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-01-27 03:47
I'm not on one side of this argument--I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Oh- and I agree. The best cane, hands down, still far and away beats the best synthetic.
I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear Paul.
But these differences, I think we'd all agree, aren't much concern for the starting player.
The points about cost (particularly maginal cost) and damage are very valid. The next cane reed's going to be cheaper than the next synthetic--although assuming both are played to exhaustion (granted--quite possibly more likely destroyed accidently first) the economics might actually favor the synthetic.
Also, as the synthetics aren't affected by moisture, the reed can be left on the mouthpiece, and with good cap practices, maybe subject to less destruction.
Still--students need to learn reed placement on the mouthpiece--something that won't happen without reed removal from the mouthpiece, and I'm sure I damaged quite a number of reeds as a student, even when the reed was situated on the mouthpiece.
And yet still I'm drawn to the metaphor of why teach your kid to drive on a stick shift if they can first learn on an automatic. There's enough to remember at first as is.
And yet maybe another problem is getting the student to accept the flaws of cane, having worked on less troublesome synthetics first, under the notion that these unreliable pieces of wood are actually the door to advanced playing.
And--not to open a can of worms--if we were all such purists, wouldn't we be teaching our students double lip from the get go? (Quick, duck!)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-01-27 10:07
Gee, cane reeds have never seemed inconsistent or unreliable to me. They have always sounded good. I've tried some synthetic reeds that were ok, but they have not sounded as good as a cane reed for me. If cane reeds are too hard for the student, then give them a lower number. However, they will have to learn to provide high air pressure to the clarinet. Good luck!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-01-27 12:54
Ken wrote,
>Kids can manage to break anything - I doubt that the tips of synthetic reeds are impervious to their more destructive talents. >
I do think synthetic reeds are far more durable than cane reeds -- but you're so right. At flea markets, I often see broken plastic reeds loose in clarinet and saxophone cases that haven't been cleaned up. No idea whether kids gave those reeds "the wall test" as reinforcement to screaming, "I QUIT!" or whether genuine accidents happened, but one way or another, it is indeed possible to snap the tip off a good-quality synthetic reed.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-01-27 18:06
Lelia Loban wrote:
> Ken wrote,
> >Kids can manage to break anything - I doubt that the tips of
> synthetic reeds are impervious to their more destructive
> talents.
Hi, Lelia. That was my post - Ken hasn't chimed in yet. But it doesn't take a completely mashed tip to make a reed impossible to play well - a little chip out of a corner or a crack (split) down the middle, which I have seen, will cause as much problem with plastic as with cane.
And then there's the possibility, which I hadn't ever considered until it happened to me recently, of having a synthetic warp. My warped Legere is just as unplayable as a warped cane reed, but a lot of parents will balk at just tossing an otherwise perfectly good looking reed at $20-25.
Karl
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2014-01-28 03:22
One of my saxophone students, a high school freshman, actually bent one of his Legere's that his mom bought him for Christmas. The kid started on clarinet, played bass clarinet through 7th grade, and wanted to take up sax in 8th grade, which is when he began his studies with me. For my lessons, I was generally using Legere reeds so that I could not have to worry when I was talking or not playing for a period of time while the students were playing (or I was teaching another instrument in between sax lessons). It was nice to be able to pick up the sax and demonstrate when needed.
He became interested in my Legeres, and pleaded with his mom to get him one. His mom and I chatted about it, and since we figured he was old enough to take care of the reed, it would be okay. Well...lo and behold...he came back a few lessons after Christmas break and there was the tip of his reed...bent back...All I could do was shake my head. Needless to say, his mom doesn't want to buy him any more synthetic reeds. And he is suggesting that "they suck," even though HE broke it.
If a high schooler did this to his reed, what would you expect of a beginner? No matter how often I tell my students to not slide the ligature over the tip, but to put the ligature on the mouthpiece first, and then insert the reed, they end up doing it the other way. Until a student is truly mature enough to handle an expensive synthetic reed, cane is the way to go.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-01-29 19:38
Karl, sorry about mixing you up with Ken!
> But it doesn't take a completely mashed tip to make a reed impossible to play well - a little chip out of a corner or a crack (split) down the middle, which I have seen, will cause as much problem with plastic as with cane.
>
Yes. I've seen little chips and cracks on plastic reeds in flea market cases, as well as the more dramatic types of damage. I've never tried to play used reeds I find in cases, but it's clear that anything messing up the physical structure of the reed will spoil it no matter what it's made out of.
I'm sure all of us here have wrecked our share of reeds over the years and they do wear out eventually. But I remember certain kids in my grammar school band who didn't want to be there. Either their parents had forced them into music "for their own good" or the kids got bored or -- whatever. But I had the impression that some kids deliberately sabotaged their gear, and for a clarinet student, the reed is the easiest victim. If I were a music instructor and a child ruined several reeds in a row, I'd want to have a conference with that child and his mom or dad and encourage them to talk about whether or not the kid really wants to continue. Maybe there's something else the kid is desperate to do instead.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-29 16:23
I am very much a student - early days.
I actually get on well with the Legere Signature reed.
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2014-01-30 19:31
I'll weigh in here as I'm a band director as well as a clarinetist. Disclaimer: I use Legeres and Forestones. I don't think they're as good as a great cane reed, but considering how little I play, I think the consistency is worth it, and to be fair, they are better than 90% of the cane reeds I used to play.
I teach high school, so kids don't get their reeds from me, BUT I know enough about the band world to know that if I were teaching beginning band, I would have all of my students on synthetic reeds - and here's why: What many of you fail to realize is the mindset of a young clarinetist. Not the serious kid, taking private lessons, working his reeds - just the "average" kid. His band director hands him/her a reed and collects the money. He/she is going to play that reed come hell or high water until it is so badly chipped that it literally doesn't function. It doesn't matter if the reed is what we would consider unplayable - play it they will. If you give these kids synthetic reeds, they will be better than the cane reed you hand them 80 - 90% of the time. They will be consistent, even when not properly cared for. They will be more resilient to cleaning after they're covered in chapstick or lipstick.
I think it's the same logic as why we don't hand most kids an R13 to start on. Of course a seasoned player knows its a better horn than that Yamaha student model - but a beginner can't appreciate the difference, and the Yamaha will be sturdier, more appropriate for the kind of care the student will give it. Same goes with reeds.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-01-30 20:18
MartyMagnini wrote:
> If you
> give these kids synthetic reeds, they will be better than the
> cane reed you hand them 80 - 90% of the time.
I don't think we'd argue about the better consistency, but who is paying for the synthetic reeds you suggest [giving] the kids?
Karl
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-31 02:51
I have to add that my teacher, who plays absolutely beautifully, uses an old wooden reed with a chip out of the end and I have never seen her change it.
Karl, how do you know I am not 10 years old, had Bob been talking!
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Author: MSK
Date: 2014-02-01 00:26
I've been experimenting with Legere and will probably switch over completely when I use up my stash of cane. My 12 year old keeps asking me to buy him "plastic reeds" also, but I am reluctant to spend the money. Partly he does break more reeds than I do. Mainly however, his embouchure is still maturing and he is still working his way up in reed strength. I don't want to buy $20 a piece reeds, only to have them be too soft.
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-02-02 15:15
I cannot understand why serious clarinettists who are playing horns that are worth thousands of $ and who argue over mouthpieces etc. buy a reed based on price.
I can understand if someone uses a wooden reed because they prefer them but not to use a synthetic reed on the basis that it is expensive puzzles me.
As a beginner I do not have the expertise to work with wooden reeds or even at time to see any difference. A synthetic reed gives me consistency, they play just as easy for me and they last a long time without the need to keep them moist.
Of course, in time, I will require a harder reed, but the one I have will surely last until that time. I don't use the cheapest synthetic reed I can buy but what I am told is the best I can buy.
I would humbly suggest that for a young person, especially one where tone is not 100% important, a synthetic reed is a good investment. They will stand up to a bit of misuse and last a lot longer than wooden ones without wetting, trimming or edge damaging and without having to be stored damp.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-02 15:22
Funfly: I respect your opinion and want to surmise by the ability with which you effectively communicate prose that you are not the "4th grader" that's "likely to use his clarinet as a sword while the music teacher isn't looking."
For those new to the instrument, who otherwise can (with tongue in cheek) also "drive themselves to their own lesson" synthetic reeds may very well be the way to go.
They're more reliable, and likely to last at least as long for you as a box of reeds because you won't damage the reed's tip for carelessness or "shenanigans."
Perhaps profesional players here were commenting on the cost of reeds in the eyes of the parents of these young students--not for themselves.
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-02-03 02:51
ThatPerfectReed. What a nice response, I was expecting a bit of a lashing as I am very much a 'new boy' here.
I love the criteria of "those who drive themselves to lessons and those who are driven" - that definition, I think, is a perfect fit.
I must admit that there are times when I am struggling with top C when I think "I bet if I had a wooden reed this would work better", however I have tried it and it doesn't!
When I read postings from those who say "when I was playing this or that piece" I realise that I am in some very accomplished company in this forum. You may care to know that reading this forum (and some direct comments from members) has helped to motivate me in my struggle with this stupid squeaky black stick.
From my lowly position as a beginner, I remain impressed with the Legrand signature synthetic reed.
Now, getting back to my struggle with this 'break'……………...
Martyn
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2014-02-03 04:42
OK, so a Legere costs $20 - a box of cane reeds, $20. I get 3 or 4 really good reeds out of a box with minimal adjustment, but I get 1 good Legere from a box of...1. That's how I look at it superficially.
I tried the Forestones back when they were first coming out and I found them all to be too soft (I play a 3.5 or 4 normally, depending on the music) - when I wrote them I basically got a response to the effect of "sorry." Hmm...well that's $65 down the drain. But that doesn't bias my opinion here, it's fairly objective - the cane reeds play better for me because I can adjust them easier than adjusting a piece of plastic. A reed clipper and small piece of fine sandpaper pretty much gets me a box of great reeds when I buy cane.
What happens when you buy a Legere and you don't quite get the strength you want? That's my dilemma - with the Forestones I could have clipped them but that ruined the reed. Do you sand your Legere's? Do you clip them? Or do you always get the perfect strength reed? I would be open to trying a Legere if I knew the strength would be par with the cane reeds I use.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-03 01:22
It seems to be that your not a Forestone lover. Okay. Their claim is that tiny adjustments to strength can be made by moving the reed ever so much closer/beyond the tip of the mouthpiece and vice versa. But clearly, if their strengths aren't even your ballpark, they're not for you--and that's cool.
As for Legere, have you been unable to find a strength that suits you? Because if you can, the whole idea is that the reed already comes balanced and that one new Legere of a strength and type (e.g. Signature) is, unlike cane, extremely close to another new one. The point being that the adjustment you point out as unable for you to do on this synthetic should itself, at least in theory not be necessary.
Don't get me wrong, nothing beats great cane. I just can't help but think your rationale (inability to adjust, not preference per se for cane) is suppose to be rendered unnecesary by the balance of the design.
Maybe you've just been so unhappy with synthetics that you look to adjust them and find frustration in the fact that "that which so needs adjustment in your opinion, ironically, can't be adjusted."
What brand and strength cane and mouthpiece do you play?
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2014-02-03 01:52
Regarding the Forestones, I got up to the hardest one they had at the time, and it was far, far too soft. That's not a knock on the reed - if that's a strength I would have liked, it may have worked well.
From your comment I'm going to interpret it as saying that a Legere reed should work under a wider variety of conditions than a cane reed? In other words, a 3.5 Legere would work for a 3.5-4.0 person, like myself? I'm just trying to understand. After my experiment with the Forestones (who used to post here from time to time) I haven't delved into the world of synthetic reeds. I understand that the idea is to have better consistency from reed to reed and that may be a reality. But if I need something between a 3.50 and 3.75 I may be screwed...I guess that's why they have 1/4 strengths.
I haven't tried plastic reeds in a long time and probably won't in the near future (due to an abundance of regular cane reeds). My comments were a little pointed, probably too, but I want to try to get as much info as possible. I see the value for some, but not for me personally. Maybe time will change that.
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