 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2013-12-16 04:33
Can anyone list some well known players who anchor tongue. Thanks.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-16 08:58
Karl Leister
Mitchell Lurie
Used to but not now, Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-12-16 11:08
Keith Stein might have done it. He gave the subject a lot of attention in The Art of Clarinet Playing, although he never mentioned it to me when I studied with him in the 70s.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-16 13:31
Keith Stein switched me from anchor to tip-to-tip at Interlochen in 1958, his last year at the National Music Camp. I looked him up in the essential Paddock treatise http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-04082011-125002/ and was surprised to find that he continued to teach at Michigan State until 1975 and then moved to Arizona State, apparently until his death in 1980. If I'd known that, I would have applied to Michigan State, he was that good.
When I came home from 8 weeks at Interlochen (and 8 Stein lessons), my parents said that I had changed so much that my playing was unrecognizable.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2013-12-16 23:57
Just for the record, in Europe anchor tonguing is not a crime as it seems to be in America. It's just one way of tonguing among many others. Especially people with a long tongue often don't have a choice. Tonguing is a very private thing and whatever works for the individual is fine as long as it sounds good. I've said it before on this board, that I find this American tip-to-tip way of teaching very sectarian just because it's only good for a few. This also goes for 'flat cheek and pointed chin.' I have written about this so many times already so I don't want to go into details one more time. Just look at the embouchures of the 'big names.' Almost none of them are 'picture perfect.' They have all found their own way of playing that works for them and they are not slaves under sectarian teachers anymore.
Alphie
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Author: gemini-clarinet
Date: 2013-12-17 00:10
I have always anchor tongued. When I try to put the tip of my tongue on the reed, I feel like I'm going to choke to death. I don't know if I have a particularly long tongue or not, but I can't do it the other way. None of my teachers (3 of whom were symphony players) ever had any concerns about it when they heard me play so I guess it's ok. It works for me at least.
Barry
Tucson, AZ
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2013-12-17 00:17
I totally agree with Alphie. You play the way you get the best result. Especially tonguing, I always worked with a student to get the best result they could get and often that was not tip to tip if it didn't work for them. The only problem with anchor tonguing with many players I've taught was that they could not do it well at all speeds. I always felt if someone anchor tongued and it sounded good, the should keep it in their arsenal but also learn to tongue using a more conventional method when needed. That didn't have to be tip to tip, that depended on their tongue size.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2013-12-17 09:04
I take this opportunity to repost a quote by Frederic Thurston from his book 'Clarinet Technique.' I have posted it before many years ago but every time tonguing comes up as an issue it's worth reading again:
...."Now try to find out which part of the tongue will contact the tip of the reed most easily. While the tongue lies relaxed in the mouth its tip can be felt just behind the bottom teeth. When you put the mouthpiece into your mouth the tongue must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed.
You will probably feel the reed (and perhaps the tip of the mouthpiece) 'cutting' across your tongue about 1/4 to 1/2 inch away from its tip. I consider this the normal position for most players, although it is bound to vary according to facial structure, length of tongue and so on."
Frederick Thurston: "Clarinet Technique" Oxford University Press 1977
Alphie
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-12-18 11:35
Ken, very interesting comments about your experiences with Keith Stein in 1958. I pulled out my copy of The Art of Clarinet Playing, and the copyright date is also 1958. Unlike many or most clarinet teachers today, he presents anchor tonguing as a valid option. Perhaps he thought you'd do better with tip to tip, but there's no way we'll ever know for sure.
Stein was one who was always looking for new ideas, and when I studied with him in the 70s (I was one of his last students at MSU before he retired), he was teaching a type of tip to tip tonguing that involved using a pulse of breath on each note (it isn't easy to describe). I don't think anyone at MSU at the time anchor tongued. His method was a bit unusual, but the results were nice. I'm not sure when he came up with it, and I'm not aware of any other teachers who teach it.
I asked others who studied with him in the 60s--including one of his most devoted students, David Pino--and none of them had any knowledge of this approach.
Still, Keith Stein was one of a kind, a wonderful person and an outstanding musician and teacher. I still have very happy memories of every lesson I had with him.
Alphie, you make some good comments about embouchure. I had a student once who had braces, and her embouchure was almost according to a textbook--but not quite. She got excellent results, she was second chair in her clarinet section at school, and I saw no reason to make her change just for the sake of making her change. She went to a middle school solo and ensemble festival once with a difficult solo, and the adjudicator came down very hard on her. Even though she played well, she was harshly picked apart for her "embouchure flaws." Her mother came to the next lesson, furious with me. I talked to both her parents, and they calmed down, eventually realizing that the adjudicator was a bit out of line.
Post Edited (2013-12-18 11:38)
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Author: thomaswinds
Date: 2013-12-18 13:17
I anchor tongue. Don't know why, I never even realized there was such a thing until about 6-8 years ago. Guess that for me, it was what produced the best results. Trying to tip tongue now produces fairly hysterical gutteral grunting and is definitely not worth the effort.
Not sure why there is such a big debate, think about flute tonguing. My teacher, who studied with Kincaid at Curtis, taught me to tongue behind my teeth. Others will teach between the teeth.
I don't teach anchor tongue, but I have found that my students who do anchor tongue have the best legato tonguing, and the tip-tonguers never achieve that quality.
Lynn
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-12-18 14:52
If it works, and you have flexibility in speed, quality, and length of articulation -- there's nothing to change.
Quote:
I don't teach anchor tongue, but I have found that my students who do anchor tongue have the best legato tonguing, and the tip-tonguers never achieve that quality.
I was an anchor tonguer who had to change ages ago. Thomas -- I would certainly make the same statement with the opposite outcome.
In reality it's a lot about what the student hears and what you're able to coach them to do with the skill set that you have and the skill set that they have.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2013-12-18 16:44
Here is an unasked question till now:
How do we measure tongue length? How do we know if we have a long or short tongue. I assume it is measured in mm, but from where to where?
If we have a longer tongue, anchor tonguing comes more naturally, according to Alphie and Gemini. If we have a shorter tongue, we are less likely to anchor tongue. So it seems that understanding our tongue length is something we ought to know before we diagnose and prescribe alternative techniques.
I have no idea how long my tongue is compared to the universe of human tongue lengths. Now you've got me wondering.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-12-18 17:10
Considering that, in addition to differences in tongue length, width, mass, etc...the oral cavity is going to be different for everyone, and a tongue of X length may be too long for one person and for another person too short -- I think it's a moot point.
The final arbiter of functionality is having the speed and flexibility to articulate as the music requires, right?
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2013-12-18 18:01)
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2013-12-20 00:35
Tonguing has always been a focus area in my lessons (I struggle with it). I don't know if my tongue length is considered long or short, but I can touch my nose with my tongue. I don't know if that has any affect or not, but I thought I'd put it out there.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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