 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2001-03-28 02:34
I'm trying to resolve what are the tonal differences between the Opus and Concerto.
On one hand, I chatted online with someone who had the following to say:
"I am a Leblanc clinician, and I have worked with the people that make these instrments. Although there are many myths concerning the difference between Opus and Concerto, the TRUTH is that in the acoustic design, meaning the bore dimensions, the tone hole placement, etc. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OPUS AND THE CONCERTO. This is a fact. Any differences you notice are probably the factors of bore change because of shrinking or swelling over time. Real differences involve merely some tenon caps, the extra Eb key, and that's about it. As far as darkness, brightness, etc. much of that has to do with embouchure, tongue position, use of air, mouthpiece and reed choice."
Contrary to that position, I've chatted with several people who have tried both models and feel that there is a definite difference between them. Specifically, several people feel that the Opus is darker and more powerful and focused than the Concerto.
I'm leaning heavily in favor of getting an Opus, but wanted to see if anyone wanted to add their 2 cents to this topic.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-03-28 02:55
i have not found the extra key (Eb) to be of any big deal. I keep forgetting that it is there and just do the normal fingering.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-28 04:03
Irwin wrote:
> "I am a Leblanc clinician, and I have worked with the people
> that make these instrments. Although there are many myths
> concerning the difference between Opus and Concerto, the TRUTH
> is that in the acoustic design, meaning the bore dimensions,
> the tone hole placement, etc. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE
> BETWEEN THE OPUS AND THE CONCERTO. This is a fact. Any
> differences you notice are probably the factors of bore change
> because of shrinking or swelling over time. Real differences
> involve merely some tenon caps, the extra Eb key, and that's
> about it. As far as darkness, brightness, etc. much of that
> has to do with embouchure, tongue position, use of air,
> mouthpiece and reed choice."
I've heard the exact same thing from a Leblanc designer. An instrument is worth what you pay for it, and if an Opus plays better for someone than a Concerto - so be it.
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-03-28 04:04
One thing that should be considered is that even though the instruments are manufactured to the same spec. there are different materials used in the two products. For instance one has nickel plated keys the other silver. There are tenon caps on one not the other. One has the extra Eb key. All of these materials have there own resonant frequency. They are different weights thus will sympathetically vibrate at different frequencies. I believe that every instrument is like a finger print, no two are alike anyway. There are people that believe that materials have no consequence in the end product, that it is manufacturing alone that determines the tonal qualities of an instrument. That simply can not be true if you agree with what I have just said. ( I know I'm going to get it for that last sentence.) Let me try to back that up with a bad analogy. If you made two cars exactly alike, one made of metal and one made of plastic, and cashed them into the same wall at the same velocity the crashes would sound different don't you think? It has been my experience that the biggest factor in the sound of any instrument is the musician. A good musician that has many instruments tends to get a very similar sound on the different instruments. I know that is a great generality but it is something that I continue to notice time and again. I am sure that there are as many opinions as there are people who frequent this BB so i'll stop here but it is food for thought.
My Best,
jv ;~)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2001-03-28 14:48
Of course, the best way to decide is to play both and decide what YOU hear and what you like better.
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Author: William
Date: 2001-03-28 16:15
According to Tom Ridenour, designer of the Opus/Concerto line, there is no accoustical difference between the Opus, Concerto and Sonata clarinets. They all have the same bore and tone hole specifications (at least, as of 9 yrs. ago). The main difference is in the key mechanisms and pad cups on the Opus which really, IMHO, do not affect the way the instruments sound, only how they feel in your hands. Personally, I chose the Concerto clarinets because the key work is similar to my R-13s, the auxillary Eb key of the Opus gets in the way and is really not necessary (maybe I'm just too old to learn new tricks) and my budget certainly did not need the extra $1000.00 the Opus line costs (per clarinet). A fellow muni-band clarinetist purchased a new Sonata and it sounds the same as my Concerto, which has been compared, favorabally, to Larry Combs Opus--by a mutual musician friend who played them both. Too much cyberbable--bottom line is play-test as many Opus/Concerto clarinets as you can and select the ones that play the best for you. Like all brands of clarinet, even though all of the Leblanc clarinets are manufactured to the same specifications, they do not all play the same. Good clarineting!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-28 16:57
I own an Opus and have sold a few of them this year and believe them to be the finest orcestral clarinet on the planet. I've also owned Buffet R-13 Prestiges and Concertos as well as several others in the 39 years I've played the clarinet. The Opus is more substantial weight-wise than the Concerto and has a better quality wood. The difference in the wood plus the resonator pads on the lower joint makes a big difference in the tone of the 2 clarinets. I've had Tom Ridenour check out my Concerto and "open it up" a bit and respect his expertise with clarinets.
While the bore may be identical and other items, the two clarinets are simply different in tone and power. The Opus is worth the extra money as far as I'm concerned. The extra key is of no consequence--but there are lots of clarinets on the market that are .575 bore size and have similar acoustic physics as the Opus, but are not anything like the Opus in sound and dependability on intonation.
For me, I always go back to the Opus when I don't want to have to worry about that solo that is miked for a performance in a strange concert hall. If you have any pressure on your performance and want a clarinet that is TOUGH and well made as well as almost perfect in intonation---it's the Leblanc Opus. There's only one word for the Opus as far as I'm concerned and it is "magnificent!"
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Author: William
Date: 2001-03-28 18:36
FYI--If you like the LeBlanc clarinets (and I do) you will love the Rossi "American" bore clarinets. I auditioned a Bb at my favorite Chicago-area music store and as soon as I can afford to switch, I plan to do so. Good clarineting!!!!!!!!!!! (again)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-28 20:47
Mark, although I don't write ad copy for Leblanc, I am a true believer. Guess it shows. Also, I live in an area of the country where the Buffet R-13 seems to be the only thing clarinet teachers know how to recommend and I don't agree with them on that. I've owned R-13s and Leblancs (right now I have an Opus, a Symphonie VII and a LL) and give me a Leblanc any day of the week!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-03-29 15:13
Brenda,
The problem with being a 'true believer' (in anything) is that you are at serious risk of self-delusion. I'm not sure if you have background in the sciences, but objectively, if two clarinets have identical bore and tonehole designs and are made of the same materials, how can they possibly sound radically different? Forget for a minute that the Opus feels much better to you (in terms of hand position, key plating or materials, whatever) --- how can they be different acoustically, of they're dimensionally identical? It just doesn't add up. Probably you have an exceptionally good Opus, and if this is so, it's because of some physically measurable (though probably extremely subtle) variations in bore diameter and/or tonehole locations. The important point is, there are significant variations in response and tone quality from item-to-item even within the same brand and model, because significant effects result from very subtle dimensional variations (manufacturing tolerances and material changes with humidity, aging, residual stresses, etc. etc.). It's not a function of faith, or magic, or key cup shape, or presence/absence of tenon rings, or even body material (although this last is quite controversial!). The bottom line is, your Opus feels good to you, so you believe it sounds better than everything else. Your belief may bring you satisfaction (and this is good!), but it ain't necessarily reality.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-29 16:14
David, Although I don't consider myself an expert on acoustics, I have studied the acoustic design of clarinets fairly extensively over the last 39 years as a player and can tell you that different woods make different sounds because of the density of the wood grain--like the rosewood Symphonie VII--it has a sweeter tone although it is identical to the Opus--than the grenadilla wood Opus. The wood on the Opus and the wood on the Concerto are not identical. One is more seasoned and is of a higher quality than the other.
According to the Selmer page about their Signature, everything contributes slightly to the tone of a clarinet. Their clarinet is .575 exactly like the Opus, but is very different in sound.
My thoughts on the Opus come from not one, but many Opuses. They all have a great, big, powerful sound. I agree is is possible to get a bad Opus just like anything else--but I've also played dozens of Concertos and played them side by side for comparison for hours on end and they are not the same. The Concerto is brighter in tone than the Opus.
All clarinets have a unique sound and feel and each should probably be judged on its own merits.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-03-29 16:56
Brenda,
Again, you are just one player, with your own set of biases and preconceived notions (as we all have), and you can only report your own perceptions of sound. Have you done any carefully-controlled double-blind tests, with expert musicians listening and judging? Until then, you cannot make anything resembling definitive statements regarding the sound of various clarinets, and especially you cannot attribute such perceived differences to one parameter (such as the density of the wood you mentioned). And quoting Selmer marketing literature is not scientific evidence either --- they are in the business of selling clarinets, not in dissemination scientific truth!
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Author: William
Date: 2001-03-29 16:56
Again, it would be pertinent to recall the wise consul of the great Duke Ellington when he said, "If it sounds good, it is good." Peace, and good clarineting, everyone!!!!!!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-03-29 17:05
Who would I be to question The Duke? But then again, the fundamental question remains: "sounds good" to whom? The player, or the listeners? And how much must one pay to get how much 'improvement' in sound? Those people who say "buy the most expensive clarinet you can, because it's going to sound better" are neither accurate nor fair to the vast majority of us who have other financial obligations. 'More expensive' most assuredly does NOT always play better. And it's selfish to spend top dollar on yourself if other people are involved in your finances. I would really like to have a $5000 Buffet 1193-2 low-C bass clarinet, but it wouldn't be fair to my family for me to spend that kind of money on myself, so instead I strive to get the best 'bang for the buck' out of all my instruments. And certainly for most students, it's unfair to advise their parents to go shell out $2K for a new R-13 for their kids, unless the student is well on his/her way to a professional career as a clarinetist. In an ideal world, we would all be able to play "the best money can buy" (whatever that is), but let's have some reality here, please!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-29 19:50
David, et al--, I believe I made it clear that I consider myself NOT to be an expert on physics or acoustics and my opinions are strictly my own opinions based upon my own experience and searches. I'm not trying to make a scientific point in quoting the Selmer website--merely an observation. Although, I have tried 3 Selmer Signatures against my Opus for a period of time. I'm not into double-blind anything and really find such pomposity extreme arrogance. We're just stating our opinions and I don't think there's anyone who has entered this discussion who is going to prove a point scientifically on this. It's a non-issue. It started out as a discussion of the differences between the Opus and Concerto and somehow has ended up in an arguement.
So, for the record--you win David. I'm out of here.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-03-29 20:34
Brenda,
I sincerely apologize for having offended you --- I certainly didn't mean to do so. And I also apologize to everyone if I have been arrogant or pompous. I was only trying to point out that in music, as in so many other aspects of life (everything from politics to religion to medical science to what-have-you), we must always be concerned about what is objective, and what is subjective, and not allow ourselves to be bamboozled by hype, unsubstantiated opinions, marketing, etc. Maybe I'm way out to lunch, but I feel that, in general, people are too naive and gullible --- I think we should be more sceptical about things, not just in the world of music. It's a form of mental laziness, IMHO, to simply believe what (to choose a relevant example) Tom Ridenour says about a clarinet, rather than take a hard, objective look at his motives and his evidence (apologies to Tom if I've offended you also with this example!). I am very, very sorry that I angered you, Brenda, and hope that you'll stay on the list and just forget about my babble. I'll knock it off now!
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Author: Todd
Date: 2001-03-29 23:30
Brenda, Dave (and Mark C.)--
I'm an adult beginner on the clarinet. (I'm switching from percussion because I finally figured out that while everyone else in the group gets to play ten different tunes--or at least harmonies--in ten different pieces, the drummer basically plays "boom, chick, boom, chick, boom, chick, boom, chick" ten different times.) In the last year I've scoured the Internet to find clarinet-related sites in order to add to my meager store of knowledge of equipment, technique, history, etc. By far, the phorum (and all of sneezy) I find to be the best site. Mark, a huge thank you for webmastering this.
I like the site not only because there are quite a number of knowledgeable people contributing to it, but also because so many of you are so passionate about the subjects you write about. And I think those varying passionate viewpoints serve to illuminate the various facets of each subject in a way that mere dry discourse would not, and provide those of us "listening" with a great deal of food for thought (not to mention entertainment).
Of course, some topics provoke more passion than others. I've noticed one that falls into the more category is what might be called "anecdotal" versus "scientific" evidence. Personally, I like hearing both sides.
Brenda and Dave, I've learned a lot from both of you. You both have excellent reputations on the BB, as shown by postings by others referring to dealings with you. I find you to be quite knowledgeable, fine "explainers," and (clearly) passionate about your interests. Please continue that passionate discourse (and occasional argument with others) for the benefit of the rest of us. Selfishly, I'd hate to see either of you stop posting, or soften your positions. After all, what would we musicians, and music, be without passion?
Todd W
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