 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sha
Date: 2013-07-08 14:38
Hello,
I have been playing my Buffet R13 (1978) Bb clarinet for only a couple of years.
I have been noticing that when I go from A (throat note) to B (lowest note of upper register) the attack of the B note is slow and sluggish but if I play the same B note coming from a lower note - like from a G (all open) - it's easier to get a sharper attack on that B note. Also I do not have the same problem going from
I am wondering if it's a common problem or if it's my clarinet fault or my embochure....unfortunately I do not have a teacher to ask this question to so I was hoping to get some tips from you guys.
I should add I use a Vandoren mouthpiece B40 and reed #2....Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-08 14:58
Keep your right hand fingers down when playing the throat nores (G-Bb) which will mean you'll only have to put the left hand fingers down when you go to the upper note. This will make things much smoother when crossing the break.
You're in effect preparing for the leap by placing the necessary right hand fingers down in advance of actually playing them - not only does this make the leap smoother, it also adds more substance and resonance to the throat notes.
So play 'open G' as ooo|xxxE/B and then the B as Sp.Th. xxx|xxxE/B - repeat this interval starting slowly and gradually building up speed.
Same with throat G#, A and Bb going to any upper register note utilising the right hand (B-F#) - keep the required RH fingers down for the upper note when playing the throat notes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-07-08 15:01)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-08 16:32
If G to B is clean and A to B isn't, it probably has something to do with how and when your LH first finger moves off the A key and covers the first (E) hole. Do you notice the problem when you try to slur from A to B? Does it happen when you play a short A followed by a space and then B? If not, it's likely caused by a flaw in your index finger movement. Most players develop the technique of rolling the LH index finger back and forth between the A key and the E tone hole, allowing the movement to be done without a G in between. However you accomplish this movement, it needs to be well coordinated so the index finger leaves the A key and immediately lands securely on the E hole as your other fingers land on B.
More general problems moving from any throat note to B can be caused by clenching your jaw to hold the instrument still, missing a tone hole somewhere (which you can minimize by using Chris's suggestion about having your RH fingers down for the throat notes), or not accounting with the breath for the difference in resistance between throat notes and the long notes just above them. And, of course, a mechanical problem with the clarinet - principally leaking B or C pads or a mis-adjusted foot key linking the B and C pads when you press the B lever - ought to be ruled out by a competent repair person. A 2-year-old clarinet, if it hasn't ever been serviced, can be out of adjustment enough to cause this and other problems.
Karl
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Author: Sha
Date: 2013-07-08 17:01
Thank you so much guys for the tips!
Chris I will try that trick as it surely would make things easier.
KDK I tend to rule out the mechanical problem because (and i forgot to mention it before) when I play the B coming from the above notes in the higher register it plays just fine....but coming from below it feels as if "there is air trapped inside the clarinet that cannot get out"...mmmm...does it make any sense? Can there be a "backflow" of air of some kind? I did check the B and C pads with a thin paper and adjusted them to have equal pressure once closed.
I will surely check more closely the difference in breath (I might need more concentrate/stronger breath on that B note) as that could be a problem as well as index finger and/or the jaws.
thanks again, Sha
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Author: Sha
Date: 2013-07-08 17:23
Karl, I forgot to answer your question:
when I play a short A and/or leave a pause before the B, then the attack of the B sounds better - I noticed that that also means I use a different breath as I breath in in the pause between the two notes otherwise I don't (is that a slur?)
thanks,
shastro
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-08 17:44
I would also add that there could still be a possible issue with the "B" not sealing properly. Just play the "B" and see if it speaks easier when you also put down the RH "C" key. If so, the fix is an easy (dare I say)bending of the "C" cup by propping the tip of your thumb beneath the crow's foot (the doohickey under the "Ab/Eb" key) and gently pressing on the "C" cup so that it will come down further when you just press the LH "B" key.
I would also add that the term "rolling" when referring to your LH index finger and the "A" key really should ONLY indicate what happens when you are consciously just moving your index finger UP to the "A" or DOWN off the "A." Your finger by itself CANNOT ROLL; and attempting to do so will cause you to try rolling your wrist which you CAN do but this only causes huge problems for the other fingers of the LH down the road.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Sha
Date: 2013-07-08 18:28
Thanks Paul, no, no difference when I put down the C...it seems to seal OK.
I must say that to go around the issue I started using as a default the C with the throat setting rather than the C with whole fingers down - but only when I come from the lower register because when I come from above the C all fingers down sounds OK. Is that a bad habit that I should definitely try to change?
shastro
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-08 18:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I would also add that the term "rolling" when referring to your
> LH index finger and the "A" key really should ONLY indicate
> what happens when you are consciously just moving your index
> finger UP to the "A" or DOWN off the "A." Your finger by
> itself CANNOT ROLL; and attempting to do so will cause you to
> try rolling your wrist which you CAN do but this only causes
> huge problems for the other fingers of the LH down the road.
>
Paul, do you actually slide the index finger up and down? Put another way, does the same part of your finger press on the A key that fills the 1st tone hole? I contact the A key with the side of my index finger and cover the 1st hole with the meat (or pad). To do that I have to rotate the finger slightly, which is what I call a roll. It certainly needs to be minimal so that the wrist is NOT moving unnecessarily, but I don't see how you can manage it without some wrist movement. The key is to minimize the motion so it's effective without pulling the entire hand out of position.
Karl
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-10 13:23
Kdk wrote "And, of course, a mechanical problem with the clarinet - principally leaking B or C pads or a mis-adjusted foot key linking the B and C pads when you press the B lever - ought to be ruled out by a competent repair person. A 2-year-old clarinet, if it hasn't ever been serviced, can be out of adjustment enough to cause this and other problems."
That is what I would sort out first. I would say that it would be most unusual to have an un-serviced clarinet (of pretty much any brand) with F/C and E/B pads closing evenly and correctly with light finger pressure after two years. This is the most critical, most unstable, and most difficult adjustment on the clarinet, done poorly by many technicians and especially manufacturers.
The norm is for these pads to close at the "back" before the front, making B unresponsive. This will show up more in situations/fingerings where there may unconsciously be slightly less finger pressure on the B key.
Post Edited (2013-07-10 13:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-10 14:36
The way I set up these keys to work are to seat the pads so they're closing heavier at the front than the back (but still seating all the way round) and have the F/C key pad close with slightly more pressure than the E/B key pad when operated by the E/B touchpieces alone (both left and right).
I use this across the board on woodwinds to ensure that linked keys at the bottom end of an instrument (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon and sax) will close by operating just the one touchpiece only as it should.
As there's always some torsion (twisting or flexing) in the keywork, increasingly so with longer keys and key rods, the amount of torsion has to be taken into account. While on paper things will theoretically work, they don't always work as planned in practice, so some compromises have to be made.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2013-07-10 17:08
Sha,
The advice Chris P. gives you in his first response is right on, and it is not a trick. That's how you play the clarinet. Hyacinthe Klosé, in his Méthode Complète de la Clarinette (circa 1860) writes:
" In general, and without it being necessary to indicate special fingering, the notes G, G#, A, Bb in the Medium register (throat notes) gain body (justesse?) and ease in jumping to another register, by covering all the right hand holes. It may also be necessary to close the keys covered by the small fingers. "
Still works great.
Mike Blinn
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-10 17:36
Chris P wrote:
> So play 'open G' as ooo|xxxE/B and then the B as Sp.Th.
> xxx|xxxE/B - repeat this interval starting slowly and gradually
> building up speed.
>
> Same with throat G#, A and Bb going to any upper register note
> utilising the right hand (B-F#) - keep the required RH fingers
> down for the upper note when playing the throat notes.
>
Mike Blinn wrote:
> The advice Chris P. gives you in his first response is right
> on, and it is not a trick. That's how you play the clarinet.
> Hyacinthe Klosé, in his Méthode Complète de la Clarinette
> (circa 1860) writes:
>
> " In general, and without it being necessary to indicate
> special fingering, the notes G, G#, A, Bb in the Medium
> register (throat notes) gain body (justesse?) and ease in
> jumping to another register, by covering all the right hand
> holes. It may also be necessary to close the keys covered by
> the small fingers. "
>
This is certainly standard practice and not a trick - with a caveat. You sometimes have to experiment with which RH fingers to put down. On some instruments putting everything down, including the levers, can result in either flat throat notes (on many clarinets they're tuned sharp to allow for this) or muffled ones. If either happens, you may have to use some combination of RH fingers short of all of them. Also, a reed that has response problems (too hard, unbalanced) may make the muffling effect more likely, so your actual fingering may have to be adjusted to the reed (or change reeds).
Karl
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2013-07-10 21:17
I would argue that putting down the right hand as a regular thing is a bad idea, because you can't use it all the time - it affects the pitch of the notes, and you don't develop the necessary co-ordination of both hands.
Besides, the problem sounds like the left hand rather than the right. Your co-ordination from the A key to the first finger hole is not good.
Try this as an exercise:
A to chalumeau E
A to chalumeau D
A to chalumeau C
Make sure you can do these all really cleanly. You may need to play further down the A key.
Then try A to low G
A to low F
A to low E
Then add the register key
and your A to B should be a bit better.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-11 01:23
Karl,
Sorry for the late response.
My emphasis is NOT on what part of the finger is hitting the key (sometimes I have the pad of the index in the middle of the "A" key !) but HOW the movement happens. I cannot disagree more with wrist motion. This slow down your technique dramatically - let's say you've "rolled" to the A key, then your next note is a top line F# or something like that. To get your left hand fingers down to position it's not just rolling back but also making sure the fingers are not too far "up" to hit their respective tone holes.
Again "rolling" is ONLY possible with the wrist (I dare any one to twist just their finger). Once you've moved your wrist all bets are off on finger alignment.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-11 02:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> My emphasis is NOT on what part of the finger is hitting the
> key (sometimes I have the pad of the index in the middle of the
> "A" key !) but HOW the movement happens.
Paul, I'm genuinely intrigued. Do you have the pad of your index finger in the middle of the "A" key when it has just been covering the LH 1st tone hole? If you're pressing the middle of the A key with the pad of your index finger, how do you get it to the 1st tone hole if the next note note involves covering it?
Since you only use the pad on the A key *sometimes* what part of your index finger presses the A key otherwise?
Do you always press the A key at the middle, or do you sometimes press closer to the bottom edge?
Sorry for the detailed questions, but I can't help thinking we're misunderstanding each other. Put aside the term "roll" for a minute - I can't feel or visualize how you get the index finger back and forth between A and 1st hole from what you've written, unless you're sliding it or lifting and lowering it.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-11 02:43
Paul Aviles wrote:
> My emphasis is NOT on what part of the finger is hitting the
> key (sometimes I have the pad of the index in the middle of the
> "A" key !) but HOW the movement happens.
Paul, I'm genuinely intrigued. Do you have the pad of your index finger in the middle of the "A" key when it has just been covering the LH 1st tone hole? If you're pressing the middle of the A key with the pad of your index finger, how do you get it to the 1st tone hole if the next note note involves covering it?
Since you only use the pad on the A key *sometimes* what part of your index finger presses the A key otherwise?
Do you always press the A key at the middle, or do you sometimes press closer to the bottom edge?
Sorry for the detailed questions, but I can't help thinking we're misunderstanding each other. Put aside the term "roll" for a minute - I can't feel or visualize how you get the index finger back and forth between A and 1st hole from what you've written, unless you're sliding it or lifting and lowering it.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-11 11:07
I was just playing thirds after my last post (don't normally think when playing......my colleagues point this out endlessly) and I absolutely have my index finger smack in the middle of the A key as I'm doing descending thirds. In this scenario the slide is a piece of cake. Of course as you are leaving the tone hole to make it to the A key the place you hit is lower.
The emphasis should NOT BE ON PLACE !!!!!!
The emphasis is on movement. You are moving your index finger out, laterally from your middle finger (and the others) to get to the A key, and bringing it back in toward your middle finger to get to the tone hole. If you are moving your wrist at all, what happens is that fingers two and three and most notably your pinky become disengaged from their "working" positions.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-11 13:36
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The emphasis is on movement. You are moving your index finger
> out, laterally from your middle finger (and the others) to get
> to the A key, and bringing it back in toward your middle finger
> to get to the tone hole. If you are moving your wrist at all,
> what happens is that fingers two and three and most notably
> your pinky become disengaged from their "working" positions.
>
Paul,
Clearly what you're doing works well in your playing. In fact, I wish I could see this strictly lateral motion you describe, because if I could do it, it would resolve any number of problematic passages that I've run into over the years. But I still can't imagine how you get from LH1 to the A key with only sideways movement. The A key is well above the level of the tone hole - some lift seems needed, and the time between leaving the tone hole and reaching the A key, when I try what I understand to be your method, results in a G in between.
Thinking that maybe I have been doing this incorrectly for the last 55 years, I took a few minutes to go back through some of my beginning clarinet material - not an exhaustive search, just the few beginner books I happen to have in my drawer. Respectfully, because I can't say you're wrong if what you describe works, I did find some very explicit instructions in at least 3 places. Surprisingly, Neither Klose not Baermann wrote anything I could find about the LH index finger, though both stress closing the right hand holes while playing the throat notes in passages over the break.
Gustav Langenus instructs, "Do not finger the A with the tip of the finger to avoid sliding to the tone hole; always make the A by tilting the hand upward so the key is touched with the SIDE (upper case is his, not mine) of the index."
Howard Klug writes, "Try to activate the A key with the side of the index finger's first knuckle while the tip of that finger is still touching the F# ring key. This is the optimum position from which one can make very facile slurs across the break."
Avram Galper instructs, "The first finger of the LEFT (caps Galper's) hand should 'roll' (quotes Galper's) over slightly to open the 'A' key while staying close to its tone hole position."
Again, this is not to say your way, assuming it differs significantly from these descriptions, is wrong or can't work well, because it clearly does in your playing. But, call it "rolling" or "tilting" it is an accepted practice to reach the A key with the side of the index, which requires at least some slight twisting or rotating motion of the finger. Yes, that also means a small rotation in the wrist, but all of this needs to qualified by saying that the rotation, roll, tilt or whatever it's called needs to be minimal so that it takes the lower LH fingers as little out of position as possible.
I was not being rhetorical when I said at the beginning of this post that I'd love actually to see the motion you describe. But what it seems to me must be said is that what you describe is not by any means the only possible way to achieve facile, clean connections over the break and that many excellent player/teachers before us (I'm certain I could find more citations if I researched it more carefully) have recommended a different approach from yours.
With respect,
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-11 18:01
Well I have already beat the horse to a pulp but it has more to do with all the other notes, not the connection from the F# to the A.
As long as we (as individuals) arrive at a SOLUTION that works for movement throughout the horn, that's fine. I just flinch when we throw out a term like "roll" indiscriminately because that's just what someone else said without pondering what is happening for ourselves.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-11 19:14
You're right - the original question had nothing to do with F# to A. Sha asked about A to B. The LH index finger has to move somehow from the A key to cover the 1st tone hole in that process.
I didn't use "roll" because someone else (Galper?) did - I didn't find that quote until I went looking for it last night. I used it way earlier in the thread because that's how I get (successfully) from A to B (pondering what is happening for myself). I went back last night to find support in "authority" to reconfirm for myself that I hadn't been hampering my own playing with bad technique for 50+ years.
Sha, I hope some of the suggestions made here have turned out to be helpful. I didn't intend to hijack your thread, although Paul and I haven't really left the topic. There's almost always more than one way to skin a cat. Short of actually consulting a teacher in person, the best you can do is think about the ideas presented here and test them to see if they apply and are helpful.
Karl
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Author: Sha
Date: 2013-07-12 08:02
Hey guys, I really enjoyed reading about the different topics emerging. There is always a lot to learn anyway. As for my original issue - thanks also to some of the suggestions here - my situation as improved quite a bit. What I found out is that by keeping the instrument leaning on my knee (just to test the issue not as a future way of playing) the transition was better and that means that there was an issue of moving too much the instrument and the fingers. BUT the greater change happened when i discovered I could relaxed my lips more moving to the B note yet giving more air pressure via my diaphragm...somehow I was equating going to the higher register with tightening my lips and jaws pressure, but if I relaxed more the mouth and give a bit stronger and more focused breath it's actually easier to get a better attack on that B note. Said that I will also try replacing the tow lower pads as they seem to have changed somewhat their original shape. I tested them with a cigarette paper and I am not sure how tightly closed they should be as I don't have another clarinet to compare them to, but they look a bit old and it won't hurt to replace them anyway.
shastro
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-12 12:44
Sha wrote:
> I tested them with a
> cigarette paper and I am not sure how tightly closed they
> should be as I don't have another clarinet to compare them to,
> but they look a bit old and it won't hurt to replace them
> anyway.
How "tight" they'll feel depends on how hard you're pressing on the keys, but the important thing is that they be making solid contact all around their circumference. I think some repair people like to favor the front side (someone - maybe Chris? - wrote that here recently), but no matter how you weight the pad angle, it needs to be in contact with the hole all the way around. The two pads that produce B and C should be equal in "tightness" when only the B lever is pressed - you want good closure without *having to use* the C key to help. Obviously, you need good, non-porous pads to begin with. I've always had double skin pads installed in those cups and trusted my repair tech to use high quality ones.
Karl
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Author: Sha
Date: 2013-07-22 15:38
well, another piece of information:
I found that some of the problem was the F# (lower) pad (the one that usually stays closed) that was not closing properly and therefore affecting the higher register C note.
I have learned an easy test from a friend: you take only the half of the clarinet in question, close all the notes as well as the bottom and then blow from the top end. If all pads close well there should be no air exiting...it's an easy test and that's how I found the faulty pad.
shastro
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-07-22 16:06
Yes, you can also suck the air out to create a vacuum. If you never get to a strong suction level air is getting in from somewhere. People use both directions - blowing and sucking - to try to narrow down a leak's location. Many shops have vacuum gauges to measure this.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-22 21:10
Fairly often you can blow open the lower joint F#/C# and Ab/Eb keys if you completely seal the joint and blow into it, so that's no indication whether or not the pads are sealing - their springs are overcome by the abnormally high pressure within the bore.
That won't happen under normal playing conditions, so you can't rely on the blow test to be accurate if it blows closed standing keys open. It just means the springs are set fairly light - in the case of Buffets, their F#/C# spring os a pig to balance well due to how it's mounted.
A suction test is better, but again it may not be accurate on instruments fitted with skin pads as the skin covering can be sucked onto the tonehole giving a false reading.
The most accurate test is with light air pressure in the bore (with a mag machine) so it will escape through any leaks but won't actually blow any pads open - with a mag amchine you aim to get the lowest possible reading (as near to 0 as possible).
If you don't have access to a mag machine, you'll have to rely on cigarette papers and develop a feel for using feeler gauges - you only use enough finger pressure to close the pad against the tonehole as opposed to forcing the pads closed. Closed sprung pads are easier to test in this respect as the spring tension will always be the same whereas finger pressure on an open standing pad will vary.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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