 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-06 15:57
I've been looking for a great jazz clarinet and was reading about some great instruments of the past like the Selmer Balanced Tone and others. I'm wondering what would be the modern equivilent if I were to buy a new clarinet. Is there one on the market right now that is as good in terms of tone and key action as the oldies of the big band era?
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2001-03-06 16:41
Check out the larger bore LeBlancs, the LL and the Pete Fountain Pro model (not the Pete Fountain platic one). Also, try the Yamaha SE (not SEV).
John
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Author: Brenda Gdog Gd
Date: 2001-03-06 18:05
I've tried (and owned) the Pete Fountain (wood Paris model) and didn't like the clunky key action of the bottom right hand. It was noisey and I found it "annoying" to play. The tone was good, as is the tone in the LL (also have owned several of these). The LL had the same problem with the right hand key action. I currently have a new Opus and it is wonderful--especially for orchestra. The key action is nice and smooth--but am interested in the larger bore clarinets--possibly a Selmer--for big band and jazz. I'm not a Yamaha fan--although Buddy De Franco plays one--and he's great.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-03-06 18:07
John says it well.. The P F's models 1610-11 AND the Dynamic H model 1276 [worked on one, still trying to buy it!!] have the same large bore .590" [15.00mm] for you jazz enthusiasts. Also look into the old [1940-50] Selmers which prob. were large bore [others please help] for volume in cl-lead playing ala G Miller. My CT plays out well! Don
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Author: drew
Date: 2001-03-06 18:20
For a new instrument I quite agree that the Leblanc Pete Fountain is the best choice.
If you are considering used or vintage instrument, many people will recommend Selmer Centered Tone and Balanced Tone models, as they are "large bore, unfraised tonehole" instruments. Another very interesting possibility is Conn model 444N, which is perhaps "best kept secret" for jazz instruments.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-03-06 18:44
I play and am very happy with my Leblanc LL. The LL, with a 14.80 mm bore, is halfway between the Pete Fountain model (15.00 mm) and the Opus and Concerto orchestral models (14.61 mm). Most orchestral models such as the Buffet R13 and the Selmer 10G have a 14.60 mm or so bore. The LL is very responsive and free-blowing throughout the entire range, plays well in tune, and has a buttery smooth action. I have not noticed the clunky right hand key action that Brenda mentioned. Sounds like an adjustment problem to me.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-03-06 19:24
I got curious and looked on EBAY "Selmer Clarinet". There are a few oldies up for bids. I was most interested in the "RI" [radio improved model? ] likely '30-40s? Its at 125 now, about halfway down 1st page! Luck Don
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Author: Miles
Date: 2001-03-06 19:45
I believe that it dosen't really matter what make of clarinet you are using, it is the mouthpiece in which you are using that will make you sound the way you would want to.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-03-06 19:59
As a low-cost option for a big-bore clarinet, might I suggest the Boosey & Hawkes "The Edgware" --- many of these around, they're all over eBay, and can be had in restorable condition for as little as $50, or fully restored for around $300. With a proper renovation, this can be a much nicer clarinet than you might expect (best years are the later wood ones from about 1956-59, with the metal tenon rings). Perhaps not on the same level as a Leblanc Pete Fountain or a Selmer CT, but one heck of a lot less money.
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Author: Daniel Bouwmeester
Date: 2001-03-06 20:27
This is my philosophy :
The equipment you practice on is the equipment you know best. In improvisation, it is essential that you know your instrument from A to Z, backwards and forwards.
When I play modern music, I always use the same equimpent as for classical. BUT, I change my style of playing.... I take less care in the sound, play relaxed, confortable.. and add some fx.
JAZZ ? what jazz, what music ?
jazz is a big word and is about as vague the word "drink".
For some specific styles of jazz where the clarinet as had an important role you may want to note a style of sound which is obtained with a sort of equipment such as a mouthpiece (e.g. Vandoren 5JB).
I have alwayz found these extra gadgets useless, considering I can have exactly the same sound with my equipment.
Benny Goodman has always used the same equipment for jazz and classical. When he recorded contrasts with Bartok, he had his ligature inverted as if he was doing big band swing.
The only piece of equipment you might need to get a special sound is good mics (such as the SDSystems mics) and a guitar effect /preamp, which would enable you to get very special electric sounds which are well suited with fusion jazz. (Listen to the bass clarinet in the tune "Butterfly" of the album Thrust of Herbie Hancock)
What I have always found is that popular music clarinetist have usually been quite passive about the equipment.
I know some guyz that spend all their money on intruments (they change clarinet every year) but they are usually classical players.
My jazz teacher uses plastic vitos for his concerts only because you can get flashy colours (he even mixed two vitos a blue and a yellow one), and then it makes the instrument look more cool. He doesn't care of the sound.
I think that it is interesting in modern music to experiment different configuration (like using plastic reeds, special mouthpieces). But that for any older jazz any clarinet would do. In jazz the sound is not very important, it's the rithm and the style which is important.
I suggest you listen and compare to different artists such as :
Don Byron
Louis Sclavis
Paquito da Riviera
Eddie Daniels
Barney Bigard
Benny Goodman
Artie Shaw
The choice on equipment is yours not mine or nobody else. The important is that you know it very well.
Ciao
Daniel
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-03-06 21:02
I think the whole concept of a jazz setup is a myth, whether you are talking about the mouthpiece or the instrument. I'm sure some of us do both on the same setup. I wonder whether some of the great jazz clarinetists played on classical setups.
Meri
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-03-06 21:59
Brenda -
I'm of the same (personal) opinion as Meri - there is no such thing as a 'Jazz clarinet, setup, mouthpiece' - or 'Jazz' anything else. If the horn/setup plays well for you - it'll play well in any situation you want to play in. The point is to make music. You control that, not the horn.
ron b
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-06 22:37
You know--I was practicing my Irish stuff for our St. Pat's day concert on my rosewood clarinet with my Kaspar mouthpiece and went into some big band swing stuff and it sounded pretty nice. Not dark and creamy like Benny Goodman--but nice. Maybe I'll just keep playing my old clarinets and see what kind of sound I can develop. You guys are all great. I've even had some offers on clarinets you have around the house. Never know. I might take you up on one sometime.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2001-03-06 22:57
Sorry Mary and Ron,
I disagree, and that is my right just as your right to think the way you do. I could never get the same sound out of my R-13 as I can my Selmer CT and BT. Even with same mouthpieces and reeds, "relaxing", or whatever. It just isn't the same sound and it isn't my imagination. Yes, you can play jazz with the same setup.....it just that I prefer to play with a certain tone quality that I can't get out of a small bore instrument.
John
John
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Author: Meri
Date: 2001-03-06 23:00
John: yes, but does the audience notice? Probably not.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2001-03-06 23:23
Meri:
Correct, the audience probably doesn't notice......but if I'm more comfortable with the setup it probably does show in my performance. I believe that is what it "boils down to". Some players might be comfortable with the same setup for each genre, but if you took a poll, I bet those of us out here in the clarinet world whose main work is jazz, most of us will have a specific setup that is different than the "classical" setup. Let's take a sample. I'll start a new thread and we'll see what happens.
John
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-03-07 02:22
John -
We can disagree and still be friends :]
However, I don't see this as a disagreement. I believe with all my heart that the instrument you feel best with makes a world of difference in how you play. I have a couple of horns that are good enough for a 'spare' - in case the good one (the one I like most) is on the blink. I know other folks who have a definite preference of matching the instrument to the kind of music they're playing. I have no problem with that at all. I have a horn I particularly like to use for all occasions because I'm used to its characteristics, that's all. You should by all means use the instrument you like best for whatever reason. I have no disagreement with that.
No one who ever heard me play came up afterward to mention, "Oh, I notice you were playing your Butterfield Special tonight. It sounds so much better than the Krummfest Zinko X3 !" No, they never gave a hoot. They were much more interested in their conversation or dance partner than what kinds of instruments the 'band' was playing, the actors got much more attention than the pit orchestra horns - the music more than the musicians. My 'mentor', eons ago, was first clarinetist in the local philharmonic (I played second), and would never have dreamed of using his Buffet on a dance gig. He had a plastic Bundy for that. My best recollection is that he sounded good in both settings. I may have been the only one, besides him, who knew - or cared - which horn he was playing. So, I think I understand almost perfectly what you're saying, John. I wouldn't have it any other way.
ron b
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Author: graham
Date: 2001-03-07 08:20
The early jazzers played on the mainstream clarinets of the day. But it seems those were wider bore than the modern classical clarinet (excluding wide bore "British" of course). They were probably 14.9 or 15 mm. They were also straight bore (which may be more important). So it is reasonable to expect clarinets of that bore size and type to sound and feel more idiomatic in older jazz styles.
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Author: charles
Date: 2001-03-08 03:13
In my experience as a jazz player, I feel that a good wide open mouthpiece with a 2 1/2 reed will do the trick on any clarinet.I know pros who even use plastic clarinet. Kenny Davern himself uses a vulcanized rubber clarinet. The mouthpiece and embouchure are the key ingrdients. the clarinet is not the factor
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-03-08 05:11
Larger bore clarinets have less resistance. My Leblanc LL (14.80 mm bore) plays with less resistance than my Leblanc LX (14.60 mm bore). A less resistant horn may or may not be better suited for jazz but different bore sizes having different playing attributes is a fact. Now, having said that, a mouthpiece can make more of a difference than the horn. Changing from a small tip piece like a Selmer HS* (.039" tip opening) to a large tip piece like the Morgan J7 (.057" tip opening) will make more of a difference than going from a 14.60 mm bore horn to a 14.80 mm bore horn while keeping the same piece. Different barrels can also make a noticeable difference in how a horn plays.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-03-08 14:46
I use a Kaspar Cicero #13 mouthpiece and an Opus. I was wondering about a larger bore clarinet (like the Fountain or LL or one of the Selmers) because in reading Clark Fobes article here on Sneezy about Kaspars he mentioned they were probably made for the larger bore Selmers like Goodman used. I'm wondering what difference my Kaspar would make on a larger bored instrument? I guess that's a new thread....Maybe I'll start one.
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