 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-19 18:45
I play tested a Buffet that seemed to be in good playing condition. The serial number is 291065 (upper and lower sections). The Buffet Crampon insignias were 80% worn away, the case very used but not abused, the tenons with no chips or gauges, no leaks, no obvious cracks and easy blowing ... very satisfying. A quick look up of the serial number shows date of manufacture is
9-4-1987. I'm guessing that this means this horn is what is sometimes called an R-13. The owner is asking $1,000 but is probably willing to take about $750. Is this an instrument that usually commands this type of price? From the looks of it, I would say that the instrument was carefully used most everyday since the time of manufacture. What else should I be looking for in a used instrument like this?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-07-19 20:13
Any chance you can pass the pics along to us by posting them here?
If it is an R13 in good condition that is a very attractive price. When helping students to find used R13's to purchase I'm pleased if I can find a good specimen in the $1300-1700 range.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-07-19 20:28
Older, ha. Thats a new one
Make sure there are no repaired cracks, that affects the price.
I agree with James' pricing estimates. 750-1000 is a great deal if it plays well, doesn't need an overhaul, etc.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-19 21:17
So am I to understand that if the serial number shows up on the Buffet Crampon list that the instrument is what is known as an R-13? Now, I hope that I made clear that the instrument does not look pristine. It is not shinny, nor polished looking. The case is not scarred on the outside but it looks twenty years older than a 1987 would tend to indicate on the inside (blue velvet worn away in spots, lots of cork grease stains). There are no cracks I could see or tenon chips nor signs of abuse, but the horn seems to show lots of use (lots of intelligent use). I have seen instruments from the 50's with clean gold insignias, and near original looking condition. I would have no trouble believing that this horn has seen 1,500 hours of use. The value takes a tumble no doubt when an instrument has been through a full life.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-07-20 01:45
Hi Garth,
I don't trust the Buffet Crampo serial number search service from their website -- I've read of too many glitches and inaccurate returns on serial numbers. Is there someone on the board with better experience?
I would ask the seller for permission (even if you have to leave a deposit) to take the instrument to a repair tech for confirmation of the model and (just for your benefit) an estimate for any repairs/adjustments they would detect.
I have not seen many instruments from the 50's in mint condition. Even as you describe the instrument, $750-1000 is a great price if the horn is and performs consistently as an R13.
Good luck! And hopefully -- Great find!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-07-20 03:14
Is there a cut-out in the wood under the cluster of 4 r/h pinky keys? If there is then it's an R13, if there isn't then you have something else, but not an R13.
Tony F.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-07-20 04:06
If it is an R13, the serial number and date seem to line up accurately. As for insignia wear, it depends on the usage of the instrument among other things. I'd say the insignias on my upper joints are about 50% worn. The ones on the lower joints, however, look brand new. My R13s are from the mid-90s.
The case may or may not be original, so it's not usually a good indicator of the instrument's age.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-20 09:39
What does this cut out under the cluster look like and what is its function?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-07-20 11:40
On the R13 the cluster of 4 r/h keys sits lower than on most other instruments, and the "crows foot" under those keys consequently sits closer to the body of the instrument that on other clarinets, so a small notch is cut in the wood under the crows foot to allow it full movement. If you look under that cluster of keys while you press any of the three that move the crows foot the cutaway and its function is very obvious
Tony F.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-07-20 13:34
Try before buy, and maybe have others try it too.
richard smith
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-07-21 14:12
At $750 it's a steal. At $1,000 grab it quick.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-21 15:36
Am I to understand that if I do not see the cut out under the right pinky finger keys, than for no year could this be an R-13? I'm not saying it wasn't there ... only that I failed to look or to register that detail. (it seems like it would be hard to miss). To be honest so many list memebers here have said that R-13's are inconsistant. Even as a relatively inexperienced person in understanding clarinet mechanics, I believe I should trust myself in knowing if an instrument has bad intonation, or severe tonal problems. Once I determined that horn doesn't leak, I proceeded to evaluate ease, and tone and both seemed there.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-22 13:12
The little research I've done indicates that only those R-13's made before 1980 have the cut-out under the R pinky keys. A clarinet like the one I'm looking at made in 1986 or 87 would not have the cut out under those keys. The wear pattern on the instrument seems comensurate with lots of play but no careless use. I've seen used instruments with chips in the tenons and noticable scratches on the body that have bright and new looking insignias indicating a few years of hard careless use. It seems finding an instrument where the Buffet insignias are all but worn away and crisp tenons indicates loving use. I suppose tenons can chip due to inherent wood weakness there too.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2012-07-22 14:29
Garth Libre wrote:
>>>"I'm looking at made in 1986 or 87 would not have the cut out under those keys".<<<
That is nonsense my friend. Buffet R13 has the cut-outs under the right pinky cluster.
Is there "MADE IN FRANCE" stamped under the Buffet logo? Please post the pictures. Pictures of this clarinet would be more helpful than your 10 minute research.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-07-22 15:11
Hi Garth,
Vytas can be very direct, but he is correct. There is no time period that I'm aware of in which the R13 did not have the cutouts that have been pictured above in Clarnibass's post.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-22 15:53
Ah yes, but I see that of all the instrumental trivia and even basic information, the clues that determine what is an R-13 and what is not are the most arcane. There is information about the A flat key, the cut outs, the bore, the springs, the insignia, the serial numbers, the tone holes and the exceptions, and all of these things together make for a very confusing situation. I'm going back to that person who was selling a possible R-13 next week. On Monday, I'm trying out another R-13 (older better condition, more expensive), also a new Yamaha 650. By the end of the week I will have trained myself a little better to look at details, response, intonation and freedom of play. I'm not inclined to hook myself to another instrument that reeks of obvious problems like the Malerne I use now. The relationship between a player and the individual characteristics of a clarinet is a kind of a marriage. (Well for some of you guys with so many instruments, I guess we could call it an "open marriage".) I can really only afford one more horn. Wish me luck.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: William
Date: 2012-07-22 16:05
Looks isn't everything. One of the best Buffet's I ever played--in fact, one of the best clarinets--was a clarinet in Chuck Hedges repair shoppe in the 1980's. It looked as if it had been through the second world war, worn keys, cracked bell and a metal crack repair band around the upper joint. But it played absolutely in tune with an even scale and the most beautiful sound I've ever produced. Chuck told me the clarinet was owned by a "Chicago pro" whose name was not disclosed. But my point is, the clarinet looked like something you would find in a garage sale or a pawn shoppe, but it played like it was from Heaven. Don't judge a clarinet solely from it's appearance or vintage. The other "best" Buffet I ever played had a serial number in the 12,XXX range, owned and played by my college clarinet teacher.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-07-22 16:36
>> But my point is, the clarinet looked like something you would find in a garage sale or a pawn shoppe, but it played like it was from Heaven. Don't judge a clarinet solely from it's appearance or vintage. >>
Amen. All of my old Buffets *did* come from garage sales and flea markets (not pawn shops, because pawn shops are way too upscale for the likes of me). Some of these oldies superficially looked as if they came from several of Dante's levels downstairs from heaven -- but with a bit of cleaning and repair, they play like heaven, too
I don't mind buying something in bad condition from a stranger as long as I can hold the thing in my hand and look it over carefully, to make sure I really understand the extent of the restoration that needs doing. If I did buy online, I'd only buy from a dealer with an excellent positive feedback record.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2012-07-22 17:09
HOW TO IDENTIFY ROBERT CARREE'S R-13?
If you shop for an older R-13 the first thing you want to do is examine the Upper-Joint:
Make sure the throat keys "A" and "G#" are mounted on separate posts.
Make sure there is "Made in France" just below the BC inscription. There is NO any other marking below the "Made in France" stamp on the R-13.
Serial numbers have NO letter/prefix before the number. Exception is the "F" before the serial #, which is an indication of a clarinet manufactured for European market (pitched @A = 442HZ).
Look for serial numbers 50,000 and up. (If the serial number is close to 50,000 just make sure that the throat keys "A" and "G#" are mounted on separate posts).
Markings on ALL sections should read "Buffet Crampon & Cie, A Paris, BC, Made in France" and nothing else.
Make sure there is the cut-out under the right pinky finger keys.
Serial number appears on the Upper-Joint and the Lower-Joint, but some clarinets were stamped once on the Upper-Joint only (1981). If there is no serial number on the UJ and it appears only on LJ, most likely you have replacement Upper-Joint from the factory.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-23 20:23
Ok, I tried a 1966 R-13 today. I liked it considerably less than the 1986 R-13 I tried earlier last week. I also tried an older E-11 in very good condition, and I played a new Yamaha 650. I must say that each clarinet seems to have a personality of its own. I use the same reed and mouthpiece for all these tests so any difference must be the horn itself. The E-11 had serious intonation problems, but the 66 had minor intonation issues that perhaps could be fixed with nothing more than a pad height adjustment. The new Yamaha 650 was spot on and fairly easy to play, but to date the horn which was the most pleasant was the 1986 R-13.
I'm really enjoying the whole testing process and I'm learning what is important to me in the meantime. I hope when I'm done with this I'll have something that I can really meld with and grow technically and artistically. With an under $2000 budget, so much new and used is available.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2012-07-23 20:31
I recently contacted the Buffet factory rep in Florida and he told me that some of the first R13's that were in the late 49000 serial number range were produced with the single mounting for the "A" and "G#" keys. I play a 109,000 series and the response, tone, intonation and flexibility is amazing. Also the wood has red highlights throughout the entire instrument.
jmsa
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-23 22:52
I just was called back by the store that had the 1966 R-13. They said the tech looked at it and said it had a torn pad and a regulation problem. Could this have caused an small intonation problem that I noticed? They want me to re-test the horn at my convenience.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-02 22:05
I purchased the R-13 today. This is strange for me, because only last week I purchased a Custom CSV Yamaha that is perfectly good. The thing was that as I played the Buffet, I noticed a warmth that called to me. The intonation was good, the serial numbers matched showing 291065 (made in 1986 or 87). There were no cracks or damage to the tenon. The keys still had good plating. There were no leaks or scratches and many of the pads had been changed over to cork. The cut-out was in clear evidence under the right pinky keys.... and what can I say? I know my wife would think I was crazy for buying two professional instruments in two weeks. I loved the sound. The price at $930 was attractive and it rode home with me. It does say made in France under the word Paris. I hope that still qualifies it as an R-13 (not sure). All pieces bore the Buffet insignia and the only thing the horn needs is new tenon corks.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-02 22:23
The insignia on all four pieces reads (and it is so faded that it is very hard to read it indeed).
Buffet Crampon Cie
A Paris
Made in France.
All the hardware looks identical to photos I have seen on this board.
I now see why R-13 owners are so enamored of their instruments. It's all about the sound and ease.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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