 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2012-06-30 23:20
I participate in a couple of bands here in atlanta, one marching and the other a concert band. I have had other musicians, sax and brass players in particular
approach me with the question, Why do the clarinets think they are prima donnas. I can never answer that question because I dont consider myself a prima anything, I just like to play music and have fun while doing it. after working all day its a good stress reliever for me. I believe for some its more of a you cant touch me kinda of thing but does anyone here know why we as
clarinetist would be labeled as prima donnas? My apologies in advance if its offensive to anyone, but I would to be able to answer that question the next time it comes up. BTW I tend not to get caught up in others( clarinetists) affairs so I wouldnt know how to label one section as such because its drama to me. I expect no real answer just insight. thanks.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-30 23:45
Stereotypes. Just like trumpet players being primadonnas, singers being primadonnas, drummers being "cool" or "hip", male flute players automatically labeled as "gay" cause it's a "girl's instrument", etc. etc.
It's a shame they already have a preconceived notion based on a label. Much like an email I got sent from someone on this board telling me I'm "just a carrer army musician" and to "go out into the real world and play for a living", not to mention countless other preconceptions.
My advice? be yourself, let stereotypes and judgements roll off your back, and judge each person individually on their personal performance and attitude. I've met musicians with masters degrees in performance that, IMO, are not that great. I've met musicians that joined the army band right out of high school and they are SMOKING good players. So I can't judge based on education or anything else.
It's a shame we have a label, and at some point, it's probably not even based on experience, but just hearsay.
As far as answering it the next time it comes up, I would just say something along the lines of, "We are? Am I supposed to be one?"
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-07-01 01:43
Why would anyone come up to you and ask so obviously offensive (and pointless) a question? I confess, I've never been asked that question in my entire life. So I have to ask, how many people actually have asked you this and in what context did they ask it? Sounds like someone is needling you just to get a reaction. 
Karl
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Author: FDF
Date: 2012-07-01 02:02
Second question?
How many are in your band?
Nine clarinetist, Twenty-three backup musicians and a drummer.
Forest
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2012-07-01 02:24
In thinking back, in just about every band here and I know people who perform in groups other than mine, that say the same thing, it seems that some clarinet players tell the section leader or others what they will and will not play and only want the best parts if it s suits them. I have noticed however
that most clarinet players here do not listen across as a group but rather continue playing their own thing indivdually. and to be honest I have not been able to find a group that plays as a group to make music how it should be made. If Im out of tune or snyc I make adjustments accordingly, the players I sit next to or certain people in the section including the section leader will not adjust accordingly, and they dont like to be ask to adjust either, so we continue sounding like crap. Most here agree that we dont have the best section leaders, I try to overlook that and those who do not wish to play in tune as I dont wont to be the one causing trouble in the section. I take my music very seriously and listening across whether within the section or the entire band is important to me
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2012-07-01 02:31
fairly decent size groups here from 50 up to 75 concert band. anywhere from 7 clarinets to about 10. there is a shortage of clarinet players here. but IMO not from not having the players available but rather the players and the group do not fit with one another in the conttext I posted about. And it doesnt matter if the group is gay straight or mixed, there are groups here I have joined only to leave because the members of the section are fighting over who gets what part
Post Edited (2012-07-01 02:35)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-07-01 02:32
I've never had someone ask me why clarinetists are prima donnas but on many occasions I have been asked "Why the heck do you play clarinet?". I usually just answer "because I like the way it sounds".
Based on some of the conversations I've had over the years it seems that the "stigma" of being a clarinet player seems to be the perception (largely untrue) that the clarinet is only used in classical music and the (also largely untrue) opinion that most people who play classical are snobs.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-07-01 02:35
SteveG_CT wrote:
> I've never had someone ask me why clarinetists are prima donnas
> but on many occasions I have been asked "Why the heck do you
> play clarinet?". I usually just answer "because I like the way
> it sounds".
>
I say cause it's the cheapest professional instrument, and really small and easy to carry around. Especially as a kid walking back and forth to school.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-07-01 03:29
sfalexi wrote:
> SteveG_CT wrote:
>
> > I've never had someone ask me why clarinetists are prima
> donnas
> > but on many occasions I have been asked "Why the heck do you
> > play clarinet?". I usually just answer "because I like the
> way
> > it sounds".
> >
>
> I say cause it's the cheapest professional instrument, and
> really small and easy to carry around. Especially as a kid
> walking back and forth to school.
>
I hate to admit it but that's pretty much how I got started with the clarinet. I remember at the beginning of 4th grade being sent home with a packet about the school band. Included was a list of prices for all of the instruments and the clarinet was of course the least expensive. My parents told me that if I wanted to be in the band I would have to play clarinet. At least I ended up enjoying it and am still playing over 20 years later.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-07-01 04:00
An excellent example of the logical fallacy called "begging the question." In return, you might ask the questioner: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" It's a question that makes an assertion (in your case, that clarinetists are prima donnas), referring to that assertion as proof of the assertion. Some PEOPLE are prima donnas, some are mensches, regardless of what they play, or do.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2012-07-01 09:24
If someone came up to me and said that, I wouldn't even answer. They obviously have some kind of problem if they perceive you to be that.
Oh and sfalexi, I think many people are jealous that we earn our living by playing
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-07-01 10:13
2cekce wrote:
> I have noticed however that most clarinet players here do not listen across
> as a group but rather continue playing their own thing indivdually.
That may very well be true...but in that case it's the responsibility of the director to form a homogeneous group, sound-, pitch- and volume-wise. Apart from practising the individual pieces, we spend a considerable amount of time "playing together", listen to each other and all that. If a director lets egotism prevail over team playing, then it'd be time to have a word with him/her.
--
Ben
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-07-01 12:57
What Ben said. Continual wrangling about anything within a group is a symptom of ineffectual leadership. Even a democratically run organization requires leadership.
Susan
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-07-01 19:38
Morrigan wrote:
"Oh and sfalexi, I think many people are jealous that we earn our living by playing"
I can say I'm not jealous of you as I also earn my living playing. Orchestras, chamber groups, solo stuff ad nauseum.
I've met and had the displeasure of working with a couple of clarinet divas, they generally disappear from the profession after a while.
In the context of the OP you tend to find this a lot in amateur circles especially in wind orchestras/concert bands as these "players" tend to be insecure and have a rather inflated opinion of what they do.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2012-07-01 21:06)
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-07-01 23:28
Very, very much agreed Ben.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2012-07-02 12:14
Wasn't really referring to fellow professionals Cigleris but you just had to slip that in there didn't you
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-07-02 13:05
There are plenty of divas at the top of the profession. If you played anything in the same room as John Denman, he immediately jumped in, in an effort to top you. I loved his playing, and he easily topped me each time, but I was trying out mouthpieces at Iggy Genussa's table, and it was annoying as hell.
Cutting sessions happen all the time in jazz and go back to Bach's time, when a well known harpsichordist came to town to show off, heard Bach practicing and quickly left. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I did a lot of what other people called "Shawing-off" in high school.
Among equals, at least, it's just fun. I was in the room when Kjell Inge Stevensson and Serge Dangain had an I-have-a-bigger-penis-than-you contest, tossing back and forth the most impossible licks from the Francaix Concerto.
Ken Shaw
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-07-03 13:16
Sfalexi, that's completely unacceptable for someone to chide you for making a living.
There are many different ways in music to accomplish that, and for someone to comment like that just doesn't make sense as a decent person.
Military musicians are of varying levels, but at least they are working!
Ken - fun!!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-07-03 15:41
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Sfalexi, that's completely unacceptable for someone to chide
> you for making a living.
>
> There are many different ways in music to accomplish that, and
> for someone to comment like that just doesn't make sense as a
> decent person.
>
> Military musicians are of varying levels, but at least they are
> working!
>
>
> Ken - fun!!
>
If peter's comment was meant to be a jab (i didnt read it as such, but maybe it was), that's fine with me. He lives thousands of miles away, i still get a paycheck no matter what people think about my employment, and i've got a pretty thick skin. I play at a level that keep my bosses happy, my military skills are at a level that keep my bosses happy, and i have learned not to worry about what anyone anywhere thinks about me or my playing, unless they ARE my boss.
Most of the time i hear diva type stuff, its the "big fish in a little pond" syndrome. People who are principles in their HS band, college band, but haven't gone out into the world, or just haven't chosen to grow up. But they exist on every instrument.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2012-07-03 15:43)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-07-03 15:48
O a side note: if anyone reading this thread is going to clarinetfest, you'll see examples of divas. People across the room hearing you try a mouthpiece, and they will play the same excerpt you're playing and try to play it faster, or louder, or whatever.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-07-03 17:38
Alexi,
It wasn't a jab, I have a lot of respect for musicians in the military. Lots of players went into the British Army, RAF etc when they graduated. I myself grew up in Plymouth leading bands full of current and ex Royal Marines.
I just wanted to point out that there is nothing to be jealous of. If someone is then they need to look at themselves.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-07-03 21:43
cigleris wrote:
> Alexi,
>
> It wasn't a jab, I have a lot of respect for musicians in the
> military. Lots of players went into the British Army, RAF etc
> when they graduated. I myself grew up in Plymouth leading bands
> full of current and ex Royal Marines.
>
> I just wanted to point out that there is nothing to be jealous
> of. If someone is then they need to look at themselves.
>
I didn't read it as such. But I guess others may have thought it was. I know Morrigan was just putting a little humour in there for us military bandsman. Keep up the career Peter and best of luck for the future!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-07-06 13:36
Pre-arranged cutting contests, or the ones that happen "accidentally on purpose" during jazz jams, can be fun. That behavior Ken Shaw described, where someone at Clarinetfest interrupted a mouthpiece-tasting session in the dealer room by jamming in, is just plain rude.
If someone's doing that stuff right in front of a dealer's table, maybe the dealer could say something civil but pointed, along the lines of, "Hey, how am I going to sell anything with you horning in when a customer is trying to hear my goods?"
Then the customer could say, quietly, to the dealer (*without* looking confrontationally at the interloper), "Yeah, thanks, I'd like to be able to hear myself." Two against one might shut up the buttinsky.
If someone's cutting from a distance, maybe the dealer over there could say something similar -- "Hey, how's my friend over there going to sell anything if....?"
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-07-06 13:52
In the orchestra world it's usually the flute players that are considered prima donnas, once in a while an oboe player but never a clarinet player, Stanley Drucker may have been a well deserved exception after 60 years. It's always the clarinet player that gets blamed for not playing in tune with the flute or oboe, never that the flute or oboe isn't playing in tune with the clarinet. :-). Of course either is always true, depends on who the prima donna is in the wind section at the time. Heck, in a band the clarinets are the work horses aren't they?
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-07-07 19:09
I went to many NY Philharmonic concerts. I don't remember Stanley Drucker ever playing solos to come in the concert. Instead, he played atonal scales and arpeggios that I've been told he made up.
Steve Girko studied with Stanley after graduating from conservatory. At that point, Steve could play anything. He said that Stanley never discussed playing the instrument, but only orchestral solos and how to put them across. Stanley would say things like "You're in octaves with the flute here, and flutes go sharp on this note, so you have to adjust."
At least in master classes, Stanley never plays, probably because he would drown the student out. Instead, he talks and sings, asking for better breath support and playing a line rather than just notes. Several of his master classes are on YouTube and are essential watching.
Ken Shaw
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