 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-29 13:52
A note on plastic/synthetic reeds for saxophone or clarinet:
There are very few instances where a plastic reed would be preferable over the traditional cane reed. Furthermore, the two minutes that they save soaking a reed does not constitute giving up tone quality related to the switch.
Under no circumstance should a saxophone be played with a plastic reed. It is already brilliant enough. Plastic saxophone reeds are shill, obnoxious, and unmusical.
Clarinets, possibly due to the overtone structure built into the instrument, have had more success with plastic reeds. However, I still believe tone is lacking, and may only be acceptable in the driest of climates, or when playing multiple instruments.
If price is a concern, here are good, reliable cheap reeds that beginners should have no problem playing:
For saxophone, use LaVoz Medium-Soft or Medium. Very, very good reeds. We used by the late Michael Brecker if I'm not mistaken.
For clarinet, use Mitchell Lurie size 3 or 3.5. Not as deep as the Rico Grand Concert Select Thick Blank reeds I use, but a very, very good cut indeed.
Drew S.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-06-29 14:24
Uh, yeah, sure, whatever you say.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-06-29 14:41
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> Uh, yeah, sure, whatever you say.
Hey Dave,
Let's go get a beer.
My treat. I'll pay for it with the money I've made playing plastic reeds.
We should see if John Moses would like to join us too.
Merlin
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
Post Edited (2012-06-29 14:42)
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2012-06-29 14:59
I like my synthetic. I also enjoy natural reeds. There's a place for both, and no need to disrespect either, IMHO...
Just keep playin'.
This is a genuine signature.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-06-29 15:31
If only the time spent soaking the reeds was the only issue. To me, as a beginner, I found cane reeds to be a black art that involved buying a box of 10, possibly discarding half of them, soaking, rubbing the grain smooth. sanding bits off and generally making things worse than when you started. For a beginner it also involved never being too sure whether the fault for one's atrocious playing was with one's self, the clarinet or the reed.
At least when I went over to plastic reeds I removed one variable from the issues and with nothing else to blame can concentrate on where the fault really lies...and to my ear they don't sound too bad either.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-06-29 15:47
Whatever rocks your, uhm, roll.
My issue with plastic reeds is that they are so consistent - quite unlike my snout which every so often decides to have a "#2.5" day followed by a "#3.5" evening. With cane reeds, there's enough variation within the same box that you nearly always find one of your liking.
Besides, with plastic reeds it's difficult to remember what you had for dinner last time you had a gig. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: michael13162
Date: 2012-06-30 08:17
> Besides, with plastic reeds it's difficult to remember what you
> had for dinner last time you had a gig.
>
lol. IMHO, plastic reeds rock. They do have their weaknesses, but don't go telling people that it's a fact that their terrible. If you don't like them, that's fine.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-06-30 08:30
I agree that synthetics can work for certain situations, such as pit playing etc. But, I highly disagree with the statement about them on saxophone. In fact, I've had great success with them on Sax and never had an issue of overbrilliance. Quite the contrary to be exact. Depends on you as a player, and your setup for part of it as well.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-06-30 08:47
The only time I like plastic reeds is when you are playing somewhere in which the weather is below about 40 degrees "F". Anything colder your fingers won't move so fake it. Most likely this is during a parade so enjoy the walk. Also if it's any colder your cane reeds will turn into frozen splinters digging into your lip.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-01 02:08)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-30 11:59
Wow, so many plastic reed supporters. Was just listening to some youtube clips of Forestone and Legere. And yes, while a grain of salt must be taken in weeding out the player from the setup, there is a distinct lack of character in the plastics. They also seem to chirp more frequently, but not as harshly as cane reeds, but that's probably because these reeds are so bland.
I hope any music teachers here start their students on cane reeds. Plastic reeds really should not be the first thing the student learns on, but a choice (a poor choice, but it's his/her right) made as the student grows.
Drew S.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-06-30 13:06
I always distrust sweeping statements without specific facts. I know professional and amateur players who use both cane and plastic, mostly Legere and Forestone, on clarinet and sax. I doubt that they, particularly the professionals, would use an inferior reed if they didn't have to, so there has to be some good reason for their choice. I switched from cane to Legere a couple of years back, and while I still sometimes play cane there is no way I would swap back permanently.
I've noticed no particular tendency to chirp and my tone pleases me. Plastic reeds seem to be more fussy about correct reed placement on the table than cane, but as long as care is taken here there is no problem that I can discern. I like the consistency I get from plastic reeds, but there, what would I know, I'm just a hobby player.
Tony F.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-06-30 15:17
Poor choice?
Horses for courses; use the best tool for the job.
As an aspiring doubler, you should be looking for the ways to make your life in the pit less stressful. Synthetic single reeds can go a long way towards making life easier for anyone who has to worry about double reeds on a gig.
My main concerns with any instrument and setup for theatre and recording work are:
1. response
2. intonation
3. tone quality
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-06-30 16:12
Also, any performer must know their audience. I play Legere reeds on clarinet and have for at least 10 years now. They've even improved on 'em from the start!
I'll outline again the reasons I choose to do this:
1. In a private lesson setting it's very nice to have the instrument available to demo at a moment's notice, without wetting a cane reed after not playing for up to an hour. (yes, I'm choosing convenience here but with middle/high school kids I only have 30 minutes for each and the payoff just isn't there)
2. I cannot be solely a clarinet player. I have to work part-time to get health benefits because I'm diabetic. (I'm very glad I can...) This doesn't give me the time or energy to be a woodworker. Yup. I'm that "lazy." Just ask my clarinet teacher from college...
3. In a performance setting, I have been complimented multiple times on my sound. I play Balkan folk music, and my tone is not even what most Balkan players use. Many many times people come up after shows and single my sound out as what they really enjoyed.
Again, I probably wouldn't play only Legeres if I played only classical music. When I play classical music, I use the Legeres because it's now what my embouchure knows. I performed a solo with orchestra a couple of years ago too, again on a Legere.
They're not for everybody but they certainly work amazingly well for those of us who are successful musicians using them.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-30 19:01
Quote:
Hey Dave,
Let's go get a beer.
My treat. I'll pay for it with the money I've made playing plastic reeds.
We should see if John Moses would like to join us too.
Merlin
lol! Best response ever!!! Certainly seemed like a post designed to fire people up. To each their own as far as brand of anything. The real judge is the sound and whether you like it (or rather, your targeted audience) or not.
Personally, I've converted to legere reeds and they work great for me.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-30 20:41
Well, lets put it this way, I still have not heard a player on synthetic reeds that wants me to make the switch. Actually, quite the contrary, every synthetic reed player makes me want to continue writing on this thread. Synthetic reeds have no feel, no substance, no life to them. I've tried Legere. I've tried Fibracell. Complete waste of time and money. And don't get me wrong, I wanted these reeds to work. Would be such a beautiful thing to just pick up an instrument and play.
To Merlin: Your third parameter is the concern with these reeds.
To Tony: Facts: Poor tone quality, shrill, obnoxious, unmusical, tendancy to chirp. Musicians live in a world of intangibles. But the intangibles are what makes the professional. You cannot describe the minute nuances of music, you either know it/feel it, or you don't.
So if anyone could please post a link of someone half decent playing on a synthetic reed, I would be happy to shut my yap.
Also, this thread is really supposed to be for those newer musicians trying to find themselves in music. I reiterate, the first reed a student picks up should never, ever be a plastic/synthetic. I've listed the most consistent and cheap cane reeds above that are quite suitable for the student musician.
Drew S.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-06-30 20:55
You can check out http://blog.davidhthomas.net/
Last I knew, he was using Legeres.
FWIW- I have tried a number of Legeres and Forestones over the years. I have not yet found anything that works as well for me as cane. IF they did I would have no problem playing them, as I am all for what is easiest for me as long as it sounds good and responds well.
So far, the feel, sound and response is all not to me liking, although I am glad to hear that some people are using them successfully.
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-06-30 21:34
If I'm not wrong, Berlin philharmonic's clarinet section are using Legere's German cut! I heard them playing Carpicco Espangol. Beautiful solo bu Wenzel Fuchs.
For some, synthetic reeds may not work. Of it doesn't work for you, it really does not. Just to back to cane. For others, synthetic reeds are better than cane to them. So we cannot generalise that if one reed does not work for you, it completely does not work for ALL.
I've tried legere's reeds on the clarinet. No a huge difference in tone, good feel. However I still prefer cane for performance, synthetic for practice.
Happy clarinetting!
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-06-30 21:36
Some minor spelling error. Or grammar mistakes. It's 5:30am. Very tired. Haha! Apologies.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-06-30 21:37
DrewSorensenMusic wrote:
> Well, lets put it this way, I still have not heard a player on
> synthetic reeds that wants me to make the switch.
...
> So if anyone could please post a link of someone half decent
> playing on a synthetic reed, I would be happy to shut my yap.
So, you've never listened to John Moses? I doubt that you HAVEN'T heard him. You DO go to the movies occasionally, right? If plastic reeds made me sound like John (and let me have a fantastic career) I'd never touch cane again. Sadly, plastic didn't cure my talent deficit.
Or perhaps you've heard Richard Hawkins in concert?
> Also, this thread is really supposed to be for those newer
> musicians trying to find themselves in music. I reiterate, the
> first reed a student picks up should never, ever be a
> plastic/synthetic.
I'll iterate. Plastic are just fine for student or professional if they like them. In fact, I prefer them for a student setup - no fiddling around, no blaming the reed, just lots of time to practice.
So, Drew, since you are so absolute, I must conclude that either you are sadly misinformed or that perhaps it is only your PERSONAL PREFERENCE is cane, since only ONE counter-example defeats your entire claim.
Maybe I like John and Richard's playing better than yours - I don't know, I haven't heard you. But if it were true I don't think I'd credit the reed ... I'd credit the talent.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2012-06-30 21:42
Steve Cohen plays exclusively on Legier's from what I understand... and the piles of them in his office.
Both of my teachers have given their blessing to my sound. Neither could tell that I was on plastic until they saw the facing of my mouthpiece.
Your presentation of opinion as fact is sophomoric and misleading.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-30 22:49
I am a traditionalist, and considering the clarinet started with cane reeds, I think it proper that a good foundation on cane important in development. Also, since cane does change, it gives additional learning instances for a new student to find what works best for him/her.
I guess it's my opinion, but not a misinformed one by any stretch of the imagination.
Drew S.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-06-30 23:04
It is hardly an informed opinion if you have never tried to make a synthetic reed work for you. It is a bias, a prejudice and an unproven assumption.
I have used, with good result, Legere Quebecs, Legere Signatures, Forestones, as well as a plethora of cane. I use what works. It's the player, and not the equipment!
The one tiume I was playing a solo passage in our band, and it didn't quite come out the way I (or the director) wanted, he joked that it was because I was using those "damned plastic reeds." I showed him the Vandoren V12 that was on my mouthpiece at the time. Turned out it was the player (ME) who made the mistake, and it had nothing to do with equipment.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-06-30 23:29
If we were to have the mindset that plastic reeds have almost all the qualities of cane, with no doubt, I think more players will like synthetic reed brands. However, it's not very traditional in the market, and a majority of players still think synthetics are of lower quality, etcetc. Just like how at first Tom Ridneour's rubber horns were look down upon for it's material by some, but actually his Lyriques play exceptionally well.
But there's an exception that if it really does not work for somebody, then it's okay to be going back to the last step. No need to discourage or encourage. Just let others try!
Happy clarinetting!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-30 23:37
FWIW, I think that the mouthpiece/clarinet combination also has a great deal to do with whether a synthetic reed sounds good or not. For example, some mouthpieces that work great with cane reeds for me, sound HORRIBLE with a legere reed. Some mouthpieces work great with both. And I extend it to clarinets as well.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-06-30 23:48
sfalexi wrote:
> FWIW, I think that the mouthpiece/clarinet combination also has
> a great deal to do with whether a synthetic reed sounds good or
> not. For example, some mouthpieces that work great with cane
> reeds for me, sound HORRIBLE with a legere reed. Some
> mouthpieces work great with both. And I extend it to clarinets
> as well.
>
> Alexi
>
The one factor I find fairly crucial when employing a synthetic reed is the choice of ligature. Doesn't seem to matter nearly as much with cane.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-06-30 23:52
Merlin_Williams wrote:
>
> The one factor I find fairly crucial when employing a synthetic
> reed is the choice of ligature. Doesn't seem to matter nearly
> as much with cane.
>
I agree. Lucky for me, the ligature that I was using for cane is one that works great with a legere as well (Rovner Eddie Daniels)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-07-01 01:43
DrewSorensonMusic (wrote in part):
<< I am a traditionalist, and considering the clarinet started with cane reeds, I think it proper that a good foundation on cane important in development. >>
Being a traditionalist, do you use a 2- or 3-keyed clarinet?
-Jason
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-07-01 01:54
Buster wrote:
> DrewSorensonMusic (wrote in part):
>
> << I am a traditionalist, and considering the clarinet started
> with cane reeds, I think it proper that a good foundation on
> cane important in development. >>
>
> Being a traditionalist, do you use a 2- or 3-keyed clarinet?
>
> -Jason
2 or 3 keyed doesn't really matter...as long as it's made of boxwood!
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-07-01 02:33
Merlin_Williams wrote:
> Buster wrote:
>
> > DrewSorensonMusic (wrote in part):
> >
> > << I am a traditionalist, and considering the clarinet
> started
> > with cane reeds, I think it proper that a good foundation on
> > cane important in development. >>
> >
> > Being a traditionalist, do you use a 2- or 3-keyed clarinet?
> >
> > -Jason
>
>
> 2 or 3 keyed doesn't really matter...as long as it's made of
> boxwood!
>
The mouthpiece should also have the reed on top.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-07-01 04:01
SteveG_CT wrote:
> The mouthpiece should also have the reed on top.
And the reed should be held on with string.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-07-01 08:57
Mreeowww!!!!!
Tony F.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-07-01 13:36
And I play at a=415.
I think I made the comment before, but I wanted synthetic reeds to work when I tried them, and I tried 4 different models. I tried them on sax, not clarinet, and I only tried them on one mouthpiece. But I don't know one person in the world that chooses a reed first, and then a mouthpiece. More likely they choose a mouthpiece they like and then find a reed that suits it.
Furthermore, when I hear good players play on synthetics, I can't stop myself from thinking, I bet that tone would have so much more depth if he/she was playing on cane.
But I can tell I'm not going to win the argument.
Drew S.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-07-01 13:43
If it works, do it. I use synthetic on bass clarinet and cane everywhere else. There is no way you "have to" do it or should do it.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-07-01 13:50
"Furthermore, when I hear good players play on synthetics, I can't stop myself from thinking, I bet that tone would have so much more depth if he/she was playing on cane.
But I can tell I'm not going to win the argument. "
It's not an argument, it's a discussion between friends. Plastics work for me to my satisfaction, and they don't work for you to yours. That's the bottom line. Do what works for you, but realize that others experience may be different.
Tony F.
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Author: Lorenzo_M
Date: 2012-07-01 17:46
I once had an entire box of V12s not work for me. As in, nothing in the box was satisfactory....especially frustrating considering what reeds cost these days.
I immediately went and purchased a few Legere Signature series reeds.
Ultimately, I went back to cane, as I much preferred the way they sound, and how they feel...but I've been using cane for 20 years, so possibly that has something to do with it. Still, some thoughts on the Legere.
-They sound GREAT. Not great as in "great for a plastic reed", but they sound great.
-They respond immediately, and require no wetting...instant gratification
-They require very specific placement on your mouthpiece, and require more specific ligature placement; some ligatures I had just made the whole thing sound horrible.
-They've gotten better over the years...MUCH better.
-They require a voicing which I am not comfortable with...too different from what I'm used to
-I would use these if I had no reeds that played, but I still prefer cane, despite the frustration
When I was in HS, I did a summer camp run by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. I got to meet some of the clarinetists, and noticed this plastic reed in a few of their reed cases. It was legere, and when it was still fairly new to market. They told me these were great because they sound close to cane, but are 100% consistent, as in once you find one that works for you, it stays that way regardless of what's going on with temperature, humidity, etc...
Not sure if they used them in concerts or not (probably summer concerts) but they definitely played them and practiced with them. I immediately bought some, and thought the reeds sounded and felt too strange, so I gave up on it. Here we are, 10+ years later, and I'm touting the benefits of them myself.
All I'm going to say is: use what works. Sweeping generalizations help nobody. I could, for example, mention that the reeds you suggested are not very good, and proceed to suggest the reeds that I personally use, but where does that get us? There are MANY MANY players that, for example, use Rico Reserve, many of them better than I ever will be...but that reed does not work for me.
So, let's chill out, grill up some steaks, drink a coke (in case you're not 21) and enjoy the fact that there are now options besides Vandoren Blue Box and Rico Royal.
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Author: IsaacB
Date: 2012-07-02 06:45
My first question here- why does anybody care what this guy says? Secondly, what gives you (Drew) the authority to say that plastic reeds as a whole are bad? I mean come on, there are plenty of professionals who use Legere plastic reeds like Richard Hawkins and apparently the Berlin Philharmonic clarinet section. There's no debate here, it obviously works for some players and frankly that is all that matters. I personally use a plastic reed whenever I play outside because I don't want to wear out reeds in marching band. Your opinion does not give you the grounds to make a sweeping statement like plastic reeds are bad. Bad for you? Sure, every player has his or own preferences, but there's really no debate here.
Post Edited (2012-07-02 06:49)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-07-02 11:27
Drew - Plas Johnson uses a plastic reed on his Tenor Sax.
We've all heard him, he's "Mr. Pink Panther", one of the all time greats on tenor.
He uses plastic because he said to me that "he's too old and lazy to monkey with cane reeds".
Plas is anything but lazy, so obviously they give him good results.
When I last spoke with him on the phone (2002), he was using Plasticover Reeds. I think they were discontinued, but not sure.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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