 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-05 19:30
I've been bothered by an issue in connection with intonation above C#6. I learned, like most players of "Boehm" system French type clarinets, to play everything above C#6 with the RH Eb key opened, at least on a Bb clarinet. Frees up the sound, corrects flat pitch. And sure enough I generally hear my pitch as flat when I try to play in an orchestral setting without opening the Eb key. I even sound flat to my own ears when I play in a practice session without opening the key.
But lately I've found, because I've deliberately been checking, that both of my tuners show that I'm a couple of cents sharp with the key open but, assuming a comfortable reed, exactly in tune (according to the needle) with the key closed with the octaves below.
Is there some acoustic phenomenon going on that causes a mathematically in tune note in that range to show up as sharp on the little pocket-sized tuners we all use? Or am I so used to playing a little sharp up there that my ear won't accept in-tune-ness as being in tune?
I know there's such a thing as octave spreading that's needed in tuning pianos, but I always thought it applied to octave differences larger than the interval from D5 to D6 on a clarinet. Do the notes above C#6 actually need to be sharp to sound in tune? Is this an aural anomaly of some kind that my ear is causing or an electronic one being introduced by the tuner's processing algorithms?
The bottom line is that I *feel* flat when the tuner says I'm not. Any explanations?
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-05-05 21:47
What do your ears say when you play with the ensemble? IMO that's what counts, not the readout on some tuner.
--
Ben
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2012-05-05 22:11
It's actually a very common thing. People feel the intonation right when the timbre feels good. Just think about violin players who stretch the strings to play with more resonance and projection. This is the same phenomenon.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-05 22:49
tictactux wrote:
> What do your ears say when you play with the ensemble? IMO
> that's what counts, not the readout on some tuner.
>
Well, yes, my ears are happier with the key open. But sometimes our own ears can deceive us. I play with flutists, as we all have, all the time whose extreme low register is flat and third register is generally a little sharp. I'm certain they hear themselves as being in tune, or they would adjust (as the better flutists with whom I play do).
The more interesting point for me, though, is why, if the tuners are right for the notes C6 down to the low chalumeau E3, would they be wrong when they says I'm sharp on D6? Or, turned around, why does my ear agree with the tuner below C6 and suddenly not above it?
What I'm really interested in is a possible explanation. I guess I'm also interested to know if anyone else, after running to their tuners and checking for themselves, finds that they are not as flat as they thought (or assumed) they were with the Eb key closed.
It isn't really, I don't think, about a "readout on some tuner," but more about inconsistency and whether it's in my ear or in the electronics of the tuner (more than one - not just a single specimen). Is the problem with the readout or with my perception (in which case what my ears say may not count for much after all)? Or is there a mediating acoustical phenomenon (like octave stretching on a piano) to explain it? And am I the only who has ever noticed it?
<shrug>
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-05 22:54
After many years of playing, whether in a band, an orchestra, a string quintet, a chamber orchestra, trios, whatever the case may be when playing the clarinet and you are dead on using the tuner when playing in the stratosphere just about every other instrument, such as the violin, the flute, the horns, almost always play sharp when going high. Knowing this you will always be flat even though your stratosphere notes are perfect with your tuner.
I feel the reason is the clarinets are in 12ths and most of the wind instruments are tuned to scales, such as a C scale. This goes from C to C. I wish the clarinet was tuned in octaves. Then the problems will be gone!
You and others of course may disagree with me and as usual this is what I found to be the case with Buffets. Selmers tend be better when playing the stratosphere.
The next time you are playing in your orchestra, band, whatever, when you have a few measures of rest check your tuner and see whats up. I bet the violins and just about every other instrument go sharp.
The only other instrument, the voice, often goes flat when they are just singing without any reference point such as a piano.
Good question.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-05-07 02:17)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-05 22:56
Perhaps, but I'm often looking up there less for resonance and projection than for blend and clean unisons. It may be the same phenomenon or not - I'll have to think about it.
I'm not sure in any case what you mean by "stretch the strings." If you mean tune higher, then that's a deliberate choice and they *are* deliberately sharp. Whenever I've seen a string player pull at a string (as opposed to tightening the peg or tuner) while tuning, it's meant to pull the string slightly farther over the bridge to bring it down (flatter) more minutely than the tuning pegs can manage easily.
Karl
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-06 00:25
Karl,
You wrote:
Quote:
But lately I've found, because I've deliberately been checking, that both of my tuners show that I'm a couple of cents sharp with the key open but, assuming a comfortable reed, exactly in tune (according to the needle) with the key closed with the octaves below.
Just so I am clear about the situation: When you say that with the Eb key closed and you are in tune with the octaves below, are those those lower octaves "dead-on" in tune?
Or, for instance, are your E5 and E6 sharp the same number of cents?
(The pocket tuners we use are at times a bit suspect; and I have no clue what algorithms they are "wired" to use. Those bulky mechanical strobe tuners, if you can find one in good repair, give far more accurate readings.)
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-06 02:05)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-05-06 00:38
I'm pretty much in agreement with Bob on this one. I've had occasion to sit in front of a full chromatic wheel strobe and the results don't differ to any significant degree with my needle Korg (vintage by today's standards) or even the less expensive digital read out models.
And if 'your ears' are deceiving you in rehearsals, there WILL be someone who will let you know !!!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-06 03:58
Buster wrote:
>
> Just so I am clear about the situation: When you say that with
> the Eb key closed and you are in tune with the octaves below,
> are those those lower octaves "dead-on" in tune?
>
> Or, for instance, are your E5 and E6 sharp the same number of
> cents?
>
With E5 and D5 on the A440 line, D6 and E6 (also Eb6 with the sliver key and F6) show up on the tuner as 2-3 cents sharp with the Eb key open and on the line (same as D5 and E5) with the key left closed. But, the real point of my question is that D6, Eb6 (sliver key), E6 and F6 (standard fingering, not the closed one) *sound* flat to me even when playing alone in my practice studio with the Eb key closed. That the tuner says "in tune" is what puzzles me, since I have no dispute with the tuner in any other register.
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> And if 'your ears' are deceiving you in rehearsals, there WILL
> be someone who will let you know !!!!
>
Well, in an ensemble situation there WILL be those who are slightly out of tune themselves, so I stand a decent chance of being in tune with someone almost no matter where my pitch is if it's close.
My puzzlement has to do with the difference between my perception and the cold, hard reading of the tuner - even (maybe even especially) when I'm practicing alone and not comparing my pitch to another human player.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-06 04:08
Let me emphasize here for clarity that I'm not talking about a huge pitch discrepancy between opening the Eb key and not. 2 or 3 cents. I don't have a problem playing in tune in an orchestra texture - always ensemble pitch is a fluid thing that requires constant listening and adjustment - being spot on or not with a tuner isn't ultimately the test of a good ensemble player. I'm just puzzled that my ear and the tuner seem to disagree in this one very narrow area of the clarinet register and wonder whether it's idiosyncratic on my part or a more general "aural illusion" (like an optical illusion but in sound) with an external explanation.
Karl
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-05-06 09:34
Virtually every person has some loss of hearing with age. This loss of hearing is not uniform over the frequency range. For example a power station worker subjected to the high pitched sound of high pressure steam leaks all his working life can become increasing deaf in that one range only while hearing lower frequencies quite well. Such a person, if listening to a note of many harmonics would hear the lower ones more than the higher ones and therefore presumably perceive the note as being lower than it really is. This is an extreme example but illustrates the possibility that the human ear can misread the pitch of a note.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-05-06 10:37
Perhaps this simply says that the groups you play with generally adopt a pitch that is slightly sharp relative to 440? Such a difference will be more apparent in a high register than a low one, since tuning shifts are multiplicative in frequency, but beats are sensitive to differences in frequency, rather than ratios. And if you're convinced that the group is bang on 440 in mid-range, have you ever had some of your fellow players experiment with tuners - maybe a few strong players are going sharp at the top and dragging everyone up with them? But at least you're all in tune together - that's often hard enough to achieve, whatever the absolute pitch.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-06 19:46
Karl,
Perhaps more telling;
Are the 3rd and 5th partials locally in tune? (regular fingerings with the Eb key closed for the 5th partial) And does the 5th partial sound flat?
i.e. E5-C#6 F5-D6 etc.... (F#5-D#6 would make for an interesting quandary.)
I can think of a few possible causes of perception of flatness, though I cannot say if they are accurate for you.
Perception is a tricky issue to deal with as it is nearly impossible to accurately describe sounds in words; coupled with the inability of crawling inside someones' head to actually experience what they are!
Without going into a flow-chart of diagnosis, timbre is perhaps the most likely suspect. It could be the timbral difference of the 5th partial notes in relation to the lower partials, or a deviation in timbre from what your "ears" became conditioned to hearing.
Intonation and timbre are bound up in funny manners that can easily fool our ears. -How often do you hear a poor flautist unknowingly play a tad sharper than their orchestra mates to ensure that they are always "projecting" above the ensemble. ...Or try a students' new favorite "dark" mouthpiece only to find that it simply plays flat; or at least flat in relation to their previous new favorite mouthpiece.
Relative/local pitch, intonation and timbre can vary quite subtly and fool in quirky ways.
Re. hearing loss as a possible cause/Red Herring. (I don't know your age so I will not insinuate you are older than you actually are. I have 33 years for the record.) High frequency hearing loss is quite common in most as they age; and this could be exacerbated by outside factors as putz noted. I don't know that that would actually cause the ears to mis-perceive pitch though....
A sounding note is harmonic in nature. i.e. The upper harmonics created above the sounding frequency are integer multiples of that frequency in the emitted sound. (Though it is perhaps counter-intuitive, the action was described by Benade. The why is not important for this discussion and I currently can not cite it properly.)
If hearing loss has occurred, thus eliminating some of the harmonics generated above the frequency of a given note, the perceived timbre could vary between any given listeners. Actual sounding pitch would not.
Given that perceived timbre can vary however, perhaps a pitch may be 'interpreted' as flat if the upper harmonics are not heard--- the result of a "darker" sounding note.
(If there is someone of knowledge that sees a physiological component of human hearing that I have misstated/ignored please post. I assuredly am not overly-knowledgeable about the actual mechanism of the hearing process.)
-Jason
(In revision I see that I wrote "I have 33 years..." The moral: don't read a Spanish e-mail while composing a post in English. Please substitute "I am 33...")
Post Edited (2012-05-06 20:21)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-06 22:11
Karl,
One more thought popped to mind regarding the cheaper electronic tuner itself, outside the realm of perception.
We need to consider how the tuner itself functions. Quite simply, what you see displayed is the amount which your sounded pitch varies from the stored reference pitch in the tuner itself.
The tuner's accuracy of pitch(frequency) measurement is dependent upon the length of sample time of a steady periodic input. (The longer the sample time, the more accurate the frequency analysis will be.)
Further, as the sounded note is composed of several harmonics, the input signal must be broken down by the tuner to discern what the fundamental frequency is. (FFT algorithm?)
Coupling the variable accuracy of sample rate, an unknown algorithm (though some version of the FFT is likely) and the time needed to compare that information to the stored reference pitch, we may find that accuracy is compromised over varying octaves. The variation may be quite small, but just large enough to give a misleading reading.
Now, as I am on the "medically unable to play list" for a bit, I am unable to sit down and verify anything; and my perceptions would be a variable as well.
I can say that my older (70's) Korg analog tuner gives a slightly different reading than my cheaper pocket electronic tuner. (Not having easy access to a well-calibrated Strobe tuner, I can not say how that may vary.)
What I can not say is that the way any given tuner is designed to function compromises its accuracy to some degree. The construction may affect accurate functionality.
Maybe something to consider when figuring out why you sense those 2 cents.
-Jason
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-07 00:31
Buster wrote:
> Perhaps more telling;
>
> Are the 3rd and 5th partials locally in tune? (regular
> fingerings with the Eb key closed for the 5th partial) And
> does the 5th partial sound flat?
>
I hadn't thought about that. It turns out the tuner says F5 and D6 are in tune with each other on the tuner with the Eb key closed, same for G5 and E6, and consistent with my tuner's result regarding the octaves D5-D6 and E5-E6. Oddly (or not) F#5 (with the sliver key) and Eb6 (also with the sliver) are in tune on the gauge with the Eb key *open.* Eb6 with 2nd finger, as it is on many Boehm clarinets is noticeably flat with the Eb key closed whether compared to 2nd finger F#5 or Eb5. The degree of flatness there may be idiosyncratic to my (X series Selmer 10G) clarinet.
> Without going into a flow-chart of diagnosis, timbre is perhaps
> the most likely suspect.
I'm starting to suspect this strongly as the likely explanation.
>
> Intonation and timbre are bound up in funny manners that can
> easily fool our ears.
> Relative/local pitch, intonation and timbre can vary quite
> subtly and fool in quirky ways.
>
I generally prefer what I would describe as a more vibrant or colorful tone (others might call it brighter) and I think the sound of those upper notes is audibly duller with the Eb key closed. It may well be I hear the relative dullness as flatness. If this is the case, I have to be unconsciously voicing the pitch down in ensemble situations when I open the Eb key, something I'm not as likely to do automatically when practicing alone and even less likely to do when I'm deliberately trying to read the pitch accurately with a tuner. So, I'm starting to conclude that what I've been producing above C#6 sitting with the tuner in front of me in my practice studio isn't what I produce in real world playing situations, or, as Paul suggested, someone would have complained by now.
The intriguing thing is the possibility that I can actually get away in ensemble - non-exposed - textures without opening the Eb key (with the technical awkwardness that can create), a "rule breach" I've generally only allowed myself when I just couldn't manage the fingerings otherwise. It's something for me to pay attention to next time an altissimo passage comes up.
>
> Re. hearing loss as a possible cause/Red Herring. (I don't
> know your age so I will not insinuate you are older than you
> actually are. I have 33 years for the record.) High
> frequency hearing loss is quite common in most as they age;
> and this could be exacerbated by outside factors as putz noted.
> I don't know that that would actually cause the ears to
> mis-perceive pitch though....
>
Well, I'll be 65 next weekend and I'm sure I have lost some high frequency hearing. But I, too, wonder if it would affect pitch perception as much as timbre perception, which might be involved here as a mediating influence, as I've suggested in my last paragraph.
There's always something new to learn no matter how long you do this clarinet stuff.
Karl
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-07 01:52
kdk wrote:
> There's always something new to learn no matter how long you do
> this clarinet stuff.
Amen to that.
And as with all matters here, I can't say "YAY I was right..." but I would place my money on timbre if it came down to a life or death situation.
Regarding those "rules", they're for the incinerator. Who's actually watching your fingers out in the audience? As was written in a separate post "It's the music that matters!"
-Jason
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