 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2012-03-08 19:45
Sorry this is not clarinet related.
I have decided to teach myself how to play Alto Sax and want to buy a student model. But I dont know anything about brands - is it still the big 4 when it comes to saxophone? Any suggestions?
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Author: clairmusic
Date: 2012-03-08 20:41
Yeah pretty much. All you need is a gd MPC and reeds. I use a selmer S 80 which is verry smooth, stable and great power Great for jazz or classicl. With this mpc I use vandoren V16 3 1/2. There not to hard. A little thicker reed with help produce a gd tone. Gd luck
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-08 21:40
Excellent tried and tested student model alto saxess are Yamaha and Jupiter. The Yamaha comes with a fairly decent mouthpiece, but you'll probably be best getting a Selmer S80 C** or D for a better sound once you feel the stock one isn't giving you enough. I use 2.5 reeds but that's with a 7* Lawton as I want a set-up with a lot of flexibility in both tone and pitch for playing Big Band music.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-08 22:43
I would go with vintage horns, they are cheaper and sound better. You can get a quality horn (professional model of the time) for about the same price as you can get a student model. Back in high school I got a Conn 6M for $600, just checked Ebay and one can still get a decent Conn, Buecher, or Martin (note: do not buy modern iterations of these brands, they are cheaply made now). This has a good way to look up the serial number of vintage horns (though the prices are quite inflated in some cases). If you can get one of these horns that is post WW2 (anything before then tends to have rolled tone holes and can be quite pitchy) for a decent price ($300-600), and then get it repadded ($50-150) it'll probably cost you the same as a new horn (I didn't get my horn overhauled and instead did minor touch-up repairs myself). As far as the downsides to this and a new horn (1) new horns have precisely punched tone-holes and will be perfectly in tune (though this tends to be a trait of high end models, and personally I attribute these perfect hole placements to why modern horns lack soul), whereas vintage horns have tone holes in slightly less precise placements which give them more harmonic color (IMHO); and (2) vintage horns can lack the high F# key, though I never needed this key and most people don't. Also, many vintage horns have extra keys, for example my Conn 6M has a G# trill key which I found more useful than the F# in high school. There are so many good vintage horns out there looking for a home when it comes to sax as metal tends not to crack, and these horns have personality and charm that cannot be found in new horns (there is a reason why real vintage MKVIs still cost way more, and sound way better than the remakes (the tone-hones))
But, most of ones tone on sax comes from a good mouthpiece set-up, and as such investing in that first may be the more economical way to go (that is if you have access to a working school horn or something like that). I would advise you to pick up a decent one (for classical Selmer/Vandoren, for jazz something metal (be sure to try these out if you can, I use an Otto Link). As good mouthpieces cost quite a bit and are worth so much more when it comes to tonal quality I would invest in one of these first.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-03-08 22:47
There's a lot of good options out there for a student alto sax. Buescher Aristocrat, Elkhart by Buescher, Bundy, Bundy II, Martin, Indiana by Martin, Selmer, Yamaha, and Vito come to mind.
Vintage altos from Pan American and Holton can be nice, too, if you're patient enough to wait for a well-preserved example to come along.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-08 23:23
The disadvantages with vintage saxes is the keywork - they're not as ergonomically designed as modern saxes are, usually with the toneholes all inline which can feel uncomfortable on larger instruments (tenor and bari) and the action isn't as well designed as modern saxes. The bell keys are hinged differently and the low C# key can be incredibly heavy to operate due to the short lever and heavy G# spring (if it's linked).
The tuning on some vintage saxes can be very tricky - King Cleveland, Zephyr and Super 20 altos are notoriously hard to control in the upper register as they're so flexible compared to Selmer, Yamaha or Yanagisawa saxes which are more stable. The bells are generally soldered onto older and vintage saxes (unlike most modern saxes where the bell isn't soldered and can be removed fairly easily) so if it needs to be removed to do dent work, then the chances are the lacquer will be damaged.
You also have to take the risk of them being in poor condition and needing a complete overhaul which can then unearth hidden problems, especially on saxes with soldered toneholes as the solder joints can disintegrate causing leaks or dents cause them to leak. Worn out keywork can be costly to put right as can dent work and resoldering keyguards that have got bent and poorly resoldered back on. It's more of a gamble buying vintage than buying new as they can be in any condition from very good to beyond repair.
I'd say it's best to play safe and get a decent student model to begin with and one that's been well set-up. New ones wil come with a guarantee or you can rent to buy if you know anywhere that offers that service. Later on you can part exchange it for an intermediate or pro model, or keep it as a back-up or bad weather instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-08 23:52
As far as the ergonomics of vintage horns, I really do consider it to be a non-factor, as one can just push the actual keys down on sax without perfect finger placement. The pearls are suggestions to where you put your fingers not ultimate guidelines. As clarinet players we have open holes so we are not allowed such liberties. But, when I play sax I don't give a sh*t about hitting the pearls and instead just place my fingers where they feel like going (oddly enough mostly feel like hitting the pearls less R3. And, you can always move the pearls if you really want too (or just add new ones). The tone holes on the bell can be a pain in the a** (as they do not always allow one to play the thing on the outer part of your right thigh (the tone holes are on the "wrong" side), but this is easily remedied by playing the thing like a nerd in-between your legs (I assume you're already a clarinetist so this will be more natural). And, you are right that vintage horns can be a crap shoot, but I'll take a crap shoot over crap guaranteed (modern student models) any day. You can always avoid this problem by undershooting the price that you are willing to pay for a new horn to allow for repair expenses. For example, when I got my alto I allowed myself a budget for repairs. I thought to myself, I am willing to pay $800 for a working sax. So I got the horn that I wanted for $600, I had $200 left over to cover repairs (even if all the stuff that could go wrong went wrong I was covered), but, in the end it needed no real repairs (one "replaced" pad and some key corks (done by me for free). And, then I used some of the left over money for a shinny new mouthpiece. You can avoid a lot of troubles by just finding a horn on ebay with lots of pictures (examine them, if something looks wrong wait for another horn) and if the one your looking at doesn't have pictures ask for them. With these two techniques I really don't think buying vintage is a gamble, it is a well calculated risk. And, after all is said and done and lets say you do move onto a new horn, your back up is not just some student model but a real sax.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-09 00:17
I rarely disagree with Chris P, but this time I will take issue with his thoughts on the tuning of vintage saxes. I play nothing but vintage saxes (my newest is from the early 1960s, my oldest from around 1890), I have a house full of vintage altos and tenors, with a bari and a soprano, and a couple of C-melodies, and I play some of these regularly on a professional basis (that is, whether or not I can actually PLAY well, I do get paid to play on these things). I even gave my 10-year-old daughter a restored 1927 silver-plated King alto as her beginner horn. I wouldn't be doing these things if the instruments had intonation issues. Properly overhauled and properly regulated, with a decent mouthpiece, vintage horns usually play in tune. And they sound good, and they are one heck of a lot better built than modern instruments.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-03-09 01:13
I'm playing on an old and really great Conn also known as the "Naked lady," on the bell. It's heavy, well built, and I use a Meyer mouthpiece. It still gets a decent price on Ebay.
The only thing I dislike about it is the neck. It's a bit weird compared to most of the other sax's. It also requires regular adjustments regarding leaky pads, mainly on the neck.
If you can score one of these horns you'd be set for many years.
Look this up on ebay or google to see what it looks like. If you can pick this up for $800 or so, have it repadded it is a steal. It's not a Selmer Mk 6, but it can sound fantastic. Check out this. A Conn naked lady. Brian's a lot of fun to hear, even if you don't buy a Conn. I think in this recording his tenor is too a Conn.
Enjoy his recording and notice how well in tune the horns are. It also has a nice ring to the sound. Sorry to go on and on, but I get excited about how nice 70 year old instruments can sound so good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhOkx2l-sxo
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-03-10 05:03)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-03-09 01:39
I picked up an old King 613 a few years ago, and I'm very happy with it. It lacks some of the features found on the newest horns, but it has a nice tone and the intonation is great. You can find these saxes at very affordable prices.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-03-09 02:24
I own a vintage Holton 232 alto sax that's built like a tank and plays like a dream. And, because the Holton brand isn't well-known for high quality saxes (despite the fact that this era of Holtons is pro quality), you can get your hands on one of these for $500-750 in good, playable condition.
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2012-03-09 02:35
As someone who plays on both vintage (Mark VI alto and tenor) and modern (Yamaha Custom soprano, Yanagisawa baritone in bronze), I will never recommend a vintage saxophone to a new sax student. The vintage instruments can indeed have fantastic and individual sounds, and the modern instruments can be less distinguishable one to the other, but the absolute inconsistency and potential high skill level required on many vintage instruments to control them and play them in tune really makes many older horns something only an experienced player should use. My Selmers are marvelous, but all MK VIs are not created equal, and I have had students purchase 50 and 60 year old Martins, Bueschers, and Conns, who struggled on these horns. The modern Yamahas and Yanagisawas, to name two examples, are extremely consistent, have a great scale, come with good mouthpieces, and can be purchased (especially used) quite reasonably. One of my colleagues here in the NYC scene loves vintage altos, and has been through several, including Selmer Model 26, and Buescher, but is back on a newer horn now, because, although he loved the sound of these old horns, the intonation, control, and difficulty blending in a section, brought him back up a few decades, and this guy is a monster player. In my view, the oldest instruments are best suited for experienced players and soloists, and those generally able to deal with a less than ergonomically ideal instrument. The legendary players of the 20th century, Coltrane, Bird, Sonny Rollins, Dexter, etc, certainly played the best contemporary instruments available to them in their day, and I believe we should do the same. The beginning sax player (or any instrument for that matter) needs predictability and consistency above all in the first few years, so as to focus on the fundamentals of playing without the struggle to control a less than perfect older horn. After a few years of experience, a vintage instrument may be a good choice.
AB
Post Edited (2012-03-09 02:43)
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2012-03-09 02:48
My daughter got a used Bundy sax, early 1970's model, which worked well for her for a few years. Her hands are fairly small, and this model Bundy suited her well. She could not have played a Buescher or a Mark VI due to the ergonomic problems.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-03-09 03:08
I'd stay away from an older model Jupiter. I had a student Jupiter tenor that was terrible, and the keywork would bend out of adjustment from mere finger pressure.
I understand that later Jupiter saxes are much better; but, short of buying a new one, I don't know how to tell whether a given Jupiter is ok or terrible.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-09 03:32
When I said the tuning can be tricky on vintage saxes, I do mean that from a novice's point of view over a well seasoned player's experience.
Considering the original poster is coming from a clarinet background, they may find the flexibility of some older style saxes a bit tricky to control if they play it with a firm clarinet embouchure - especially in the upper register which is very flexible on altos and even moreso on sopranos so the tuning can go out the window if played with a firm embouchure.
The trick with saxes is you blow them down to pitch as opposed to clarinets which are blown up to pitch, so use a relatively loose an relaxed embouchure. When playing in the upper register, don't tighten up for the higher notes but play them with the same relaxed embouchure as the lower register. Also use a tuner to check your progress and make the necessary adjustments until you can comfortably 'find the notes' easier as you go on.
Also some very cheap Chinese saxes are perhaps the worst for tuning and intonation problems as well as poor build quality.
With regard to tuning, the mouthpiece is best placed on the crook cork in the position where the instrument is in tune with itself - it's up to the player then to blow it in tune. Cranking the mouthpiece on so there's no cork showing won't raise the pitch evenly across the range just as using a short barrel on clarinet won't make the instrument play sharp equally over the entire range.
The worst area of most saxes is open C# to upper D - this is usually wider than a semitone and there are special fingerings to make that crossing of the registers smoother and the tuning better for the open C# (as well as adding substance to it).
But in all honesty, you'll find you'll most likely progress rapidly on sax compared to clarinet and will be able to tackle playing in keys such as BMajor and Db Major without batting an eyelid.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-09 06:42
*side note: I have a naked lady Conn as well, I would recommend putting some kind of waterproof pad on the octave key (Gore-tex or you can ghetto rig one yourself with some kind of liquid rubber product (spray rubber, liquid electrical tape, or aquarium caulk) on a cork pad).
Vintage horns are less in tune, but they really aren't that much out of tune. I would say that my buffet has much more intonation problems that my alto, and it doesn't have much. I think this is because the clarinet is a more pitchy instrument than the sax, as it is a simpler instrument in design. As such a clarinetist will probably have little to no problems adjusting the pitch. New pro-horns are creepy in tune, and if you want that over something with personality (from being out of tune) then that's your thing. But, new student horns are not of the same quality, they are made with cheap metals and no care. The fact is that these vintage horns are pro models, they have just seen a few years and won't be shiny. And, they are stupid cheap, I actually just bought a C-Melody Martin last week for $300 and am waiting for it to get here so I can fix it up with some nice pads and some TLC. So many good brands to choose from too. Yes, they will probably need work, but in the end it'll still come out to be cheaper if you know that you will need to fix the horn when you buy it. Just start watching Ebay.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2012-03-09 10:45
If you just want a good student sax and you have no specific interest in vintage saxes, just buy or rent a good modern instrument. Yamaha has great student saxes. Selmer has no student instruments and are pricy. Yanagisawa is good but may also be on the high end. No experience with Jupiter.
If you are a experienced clarinet player and like the 'vintage' thing you can take the risk of exploring vintage saxes. But as Chris P says, a typical sax embouchure is not the same as a typical clarinet embouchure and that can mislead you in choosing a sax. In any case you should definitely check intonation with a tuner! In this situation a Conn New Wonder II ('Chu Berry') is a great sax for a fair price. However if you don't feel safe, just do not do it.
Probably better to wait sometime and develop you sax playing first.
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2012-03-09 14:36
Probably not what anybody would call a student horn, but the newer Buffet altos are pretty darn good. I bought one a couple of years ago and paid $1600 for it, and it does everything I wanted it to. After playing a Mark VI in the army for years, I'm not sure I can tell that much difference between the two (but I'm a clarinet player...so take that for what it's worth).
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2012-03-09 16:04
I'll share my experience on the subject. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone else...just sharing my alto sax doubling experiences!
I'm a conservatory trained clarinet player and high school music teacher. Not the best player in the world, but enough education and training to know what I'm doing...and I play for a lot of high school musicals. I do a lot of doubling on alto sax now, but I've never had serious sax lessons. I bought a King Cleveland a few years ago that I had to get rid of. The upper register was just too tough for me to control...man, did I play sharp up there! The horn had a nice vintage sound, but I just needed something that I could control.
My wife (an excellent flutist) and I have since bought Kessler Custom saxophones from Kessler Music in Las Vegas. Absolutely dynamite sound, and great intonation. Great price, too...under $1000. As a doubler, it was exactly what I needed; a well-built, good sounding, in tune instrument for a low price. Mine feels and plays better than any student level horn I've used.
I would have to say that I do prefer the ergonomics of more modern keywork. The keywork of the King didn't really hold my playing back, but the more modern action on the Kessler is more comfortable for me.
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-03-12 15:51
I wanted to let this post run a bit so that Janlynn received all the responses related to her question. I have been reading it with interest because we are in a similar situation except we are in search of suggestions for a tenor sax. We currently have a borrowed N-series Conn from the 1970s (made in Mexico) which has intonation issues and a very poorly designed octave key mechanism. Almost anything would be an improvement! Both of us are clarinet players but are developing a reasonable (and quite different!) saxophone embouchure. I understand the debate between vintage vs. new. Any suggestions you might have in either category would be very much appreciated!
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Author: kilo
Date: 2012-03-12 16:53
There are some fine tenors (and everything else) being manufactured in Taiwan these days. MacSax, TK Melody, Viking, Barone and a number of others hardly distinguishable from each other in terms of quality and sound. Do a little web research and you can find out what players have to say about these horns.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2012-03-12 17:26
Hi, janlynn and annev. I have made my living as a classical clarinetist and as a saxophonist, both classical and jazz/contemporary. You have already gotten much excellent advice. I would recommend not even considering a vintage instrument unless you have a knowledgeable pro helping you pick it out. In addition to tuning issues and mouthpiece pickiness, there are other things that need to be watched for if you don't want to spend more on repairs than you spent on the sax.
There are a number of companies buying their saxophones from Taiwan right now. These horns are made in the same factories as the expensive pro models from companies like P. Mauriat and Cannonball and Selmer's whole intermediate line. They play similarly and can be had for a fraction of the price of those brands. In addition to the ones that kilo mentioned, the other, more well known brands include Jupiter, Unison, and Antigua. You have to do some research because some of their models are made in China and are not of the same quality.
The Taiwanese horns are very consistent, play well in tune, are not mouthpiece picky, and, for the last dozen years or so, are pretty well made. Just watch out for the older ones as those are generally not as good.
Post Edited (2012-03-12 17:36)
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2012-03-13 01:01
Here's a very interesting article about some of the history of the saxophone manufacturing industry in Taiwan:
http://www.taiwanembassy.org/US/NYC/ct.asp?xItem=29689&ctNode=3483&mp=62&nowPage=6&pagesize=50
I came across this after purchasing a Kessler saxophone (Taiwanese made, and an awesome sax), and I wanted to know more about the history of saxophones in Taiwan. This article gave me some very interesting information!
Joe W.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-13 02:46
On the Taiwan factory thread, there are some good horns out there. I have a Unison soprano, and what I can tell you is that it is a great sax: nice sound, good action, decent ergonomics, and it doesn't look to bad either (if you like Cannonballs, it is a very good rip off brand IMHO; and they are cheap got mine for $400). But they are made from VERY flimsy metal, so I would handle it with extreme care not to ever bump it against anything (also, do not clip on mics to the bell as that may bend it as well, at least that happened to mine. The metal Sounds good, it just isn't made like a vintage sax (to last).
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2012-03-13 13:52
Thanks for all the info!!! wow ...a bit overwhelming. Just want a good student model that your typical elementary student might get. nothing special but at the same time nothing so poorly made it will hinder learning on it. I will be looking at newer (used) student models.
Thanks again! jan
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Author: hans
Date: 2012-03-14 19:58
I've played saxes for 50 years, FWIW.
You could consider renting an alto for a month before buying to see if it's right for you. It doesn't cost much, compared to the price of a new one.
Re: buying vintage versus new - IMO you're better off with a new Yamaha (or similar). It should include a warranty, while a used instrument may need repairs which can be expensive, even if it plays well at the time you buy it.
Hans
Post Edited (2012-03-14 21:28)
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2012-03-15 00:54
Repairs definitely can be expensive, and need to be considered when buying used. Where I live, a saxophone repad costs about $400. The King Cleveland i used to own (1960's student horn) cost $300 on the auction site, plus the cost of repadding, setup, and a good mouthpiece after i bought it. My wife's Kessler Performance model ( student level ) cost $650 brand new, which included professional setup and a decent mouthpiece. The Kessler outplays the King Cleveland in every way.
Joe W.
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