 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-03 21:19
Regarding Classical Music, such as Mozart, Gershwin ...or any other...when conductors/etc., decide on a classic piece, do all conductors perform them exactly as written, pretty much? No one would change the key in a large symphony piece by a famous composer, would they?
If someone, on a clarinet, was doing a piece in the Key of A as written, for example, and practiced it for a long time, they would not go to an audition or concert, and expected to play it in the key of D or something on the fly, would they?
On a similar vein, if someone purchased or found free sheet music for a Mozart piece online and found a symphony playing it on YouTube, it would likely be in the same key as arranged by Mozart, yes? They would not sit there frustrated would they or feel they bought a "hassle" sheet music to transpose, would they?
Or am I wrong about that? Do epic symphony pieces get changed in Key by symphonies playing them?
What has been your experience?
Thanks so kindly.
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2011-11-03 21:24
Mostly they are in the same key. Occasionally, arranged works will be in a different key because of 1)playing A clarinet parts on Bb. or 2) make the piece easier for middle/high school level students.
At least that is as far as my experience goes.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-11-03 22:22
If I remember correctly (which I may or may not), I think band arrangements and orchestra arrangements of "Stars and Stripes Forever" are a half step apart. I seem to remember the piccolo player spazzing about that when I played the orchestral version last summer.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-11-03 22:33
I'm with DNBoone - sometimes they are re-keyed and re-arranged for simplicity, and for practical reasons such as the acoustical range of the instruments available in the typical target orchestra.
--
Ben
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-11-04 03:14
Quoting: If I remember correctly (which I may or may not), I think band arrangements and orchestra arrangements of "Stars and Stripes Forever" are a half step apart. I seem to remember the piccolo player spazzing about that when I played the orchestral version last summer.
They are. The band version starts in Eb and moves to Ab. I've seen 3 different orchestra versions; they've all started in D and moved to G. Imagine having to relearn a major, well-known, solo or obbligato line in a different key.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-11-04 04:34
The simple answer is NO. I've been playing professionally in a symphony for 50 years now and the only time that has ever happened, and it's extremely rare, is if we did a vocal piece and the singer asked for it to go up or down a step because of the range, never in anything else. The tempos may be different, they may change the color of a passage by having another instrument play it, though very rare, but they never change the key of a classical piece for orchestra in my years of experience, never. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-11-04 07:35
As the other responders have all suggested in one way or another, if the music you're playing is not "arranged," it will be as the composer originally wrote it, or at least as originally published. Sometimes, especially in the case of early composers (18th century, early 19th), there are legitimate questions about what the composer really wrote because the composer's manuscript has been lost and published editions may differ in details (articulation, phrasing marks, an occasional note) but the music will be essentially the same. Beethoven's 5th will always begin in C minor and end in C Major and be in all but the minutest of detail the same from one printed edition to to another.
Key changes are sometimes introduced when someone makes an "arrangement" of the original, which definitionally implies that an arranger has changed something important. Orchestra works are often arranged for band, which almost always involves more than a literal transcription from one set of instruments to the other. Sousa (and other) marches - not just Stars and Stripes Forever - go the other way. To make them more playable by school orchestras (student string players tend to be more comfortable in sharp keys) they are often transposed up or down a half-step from the original band version to the orchestra one.
When arrangers start to move piano or vocal pieces to other instruments, anything goes. For example, Flight of the Bumblebee, which was the topic of a recent thread, has been excerpted from an opera by Rimsky-Korsakov and published as an instrumental solo in any number of collections and single editions, appearing in many different keys with parts left out or assigned variously to the accompanist or the soloist as the arranger's taste and purpose dictated. These aren't meant for professional performance and, where students or recreational players are the arranger's target, anything goes.
Karl
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-04 16:25
Thank you all so much for your replies. I was so enlightened by them, and am glad to read this all. The key word is "arrangement" and of course, then, some of the purposes are to accommodate the singer and certain instruments or make them for schools to accommodate their needs.
My original message above made me realize I had a question about this scenario. What if an arrangement was truly changed from an A to a D?
How would that read for a clarinetist?
And how would the clarinetist know to go up or down on the staff?
And where would the clarinetist wind up? If the piece was arranged, would the arranger be making an arrangement for all the instruments? Or what if he/she did not?
Okay, so in the case of A to D, would the clarinet player go up five semi-tones and back down two to wind up at C?
Or would one go down seven semi-tones to arrive at D minus another two and end up at C?
How would one know what the arranger wanted for the clarinet player?
Or would that just be an educated reasoning, based on where most of the notes are on the staff for the clarinet player?
Or would an arranged piece be where the clarinet player no matter if indicated or not, would not be playing the C, but a D to be in sync with everyone else?
Finally, how does one visually transpose this? Would not the eyes just about go blind trying to transpose this on the fly? Or is this about learning scales and thereby, basically the secret to knowing probable notes?
Is this a dread for players, or is there a method to learning this that makes complete "easy" sense?
Thanks so much.
Wait a minute, I think I even messed up on what I was trying to say! Grin.
It would not be "C's" as I mentioned above, yes? It would actually be up two to be in sync...it would be "E", actually, yes? So, then the clarinet player is playing actually D, yes? Oops, but I hope you understand my questions, regardless of the oops. Not helping, huh? Thanks so kindly.
Karen MSC
Post Edited (2011-11-04 17:28)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-11-04 17:56
The arranger writes everything out. The players only need to play what they see on the page. If the arranger has transposed the piece up a whole step, say from C Major to D Major, the new clarinet parts (if for B-fat clarinet) will be *written* in E major (B-flat clarinet is always *written* a whole step above the concert pitch - never a 7th below), string and other concert pitch (non-transposing) instruments will have parts written in D, etc...
If the piece were transposed by an arranger from A to D (your example), the B-flat clarinet part(s) would be *written* in E instead of originally in B (*sounding* in D instead of A).
The players don't need to do any mental transposing at all to play the part.
Karl
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-04 19:54
Thank you, Karl, so much. I had a funny thing happen when I was writing my previous message...the entire message I first wrote disappeared just prior to my finishing it...grin...so there I sat rewriting it, and I see that I made a mess of it...But yes, I really see how I messed that up, because actually of course when we play a "C" via sheet music we are actually playing that Bb instrument, so a Bb is produced. I inverted that accidentally because it is easy to think "down" is, of course, where we actually are from concert pitch "C". But in order to produce that "C" we must be two semi-tones above it, then a D. So, when we play that D we are producing that real C sound.
But I am so happy to see what you are writing, that most clarinet players will not be taxed unreasonably when playing major pieces by having to transpose.
But this brings to mind, the music that is played in church, and where I can only dream of playing, but I have a problem... where I am sure that a lot of what is played is "arranged", even when playing some classics, that is like Amazing Grace, classic . And even more, a lot of the musicians are playing "chords" whether piano or guitar or bass guitar. Even more, playing contemporary songs that are very new.
How does one take music that one is given, and the only thing that is given, to musicians in the worship team or church orchestra like that--a sheet that has the lyrics written on the page with the chords written over just some of the words?
This is where I think I would be in serious trouble. First, to figure out if someone says, let's play this sheet, and one can see it is marked in the key of B, then the leader tells everyone, lets play this in D.
How can the clarinetist play the notes of this song or piece, with this kind of information? How does one do it? I believe other people are doing it just fine. I know of a trumpet player who can do it.
This is what I would be experiencing mostly if I played a clarinet in most churches that I know of. You get a piece of paper with the lyrics and chords written on top of some of the words. Often in the corner it will tell you what key it is in. But more often than not, the leader will not play it in that key.
So, now I see, it is obvious, the clarinetist steps up two semi-tones from key to be played in church, but then what? How does one create a melody line with the rest? Do the chord changes depicted on the top of the words, depict the only changes one can participate in? What I mean, is, is the clarinet player basically just going to be able to play some kind of background sound, like two keys above what is stated, and just kind of wing it? How can they pick out a melody line if they might not be that familiar with the song? I don't mean to sound so grudgingly upset about it, but actually, I want to know how to proceed in this scenario and what I need to learn. Thanks.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-11-04 21:23
> I had a funny thing happen when I was writing my previous message...the
> entire message I first wrote disappeared just prior to my finishing it...
> grin...so there I sat rewriting it, and I see that I made a mess of it...
Congratulations. Now you know how certain arrangements appear to have been published. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-04 22:18
Okay, Ben, I thought I was going to fall off my chair...laughing...oh, that is so funny.
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Author: justme
Date: 2011-11-05 08:34
One thing that you could do if you want to work with piano and church music a lot, is to get a good quality C clarinet ( something like the Lyrique 570 C clarinet, as I've read on this board that it's a great C clarinet and not overly shrill like some are, or something as good)...
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-11-05 22:28
Elkwoman, I agree with Justme. I play in church--especially during special seasons--and I long for a C clarinet. Many of the obligato parts that accompany choir arrangements are written for violin or flute and I have to transpose those. I borrowed a Ridenour C from a friend and played it in church once and it was so liberating to be able to doodle around in the music without having to worry about transposing.
If you don't play in an orchestra but you do play in church and want a second clarinet, the C gets my vote--especially if you're talking about contemporary praise and worship music which is often only written out for keyboard with guitar chords indicated.
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Author: orbystander
Date: 2011-11-05 22:47
Elkwoman,
Or you could get a music software program that can scan and transpose. Then you won’t need to buy a new clarinet.
Maybe some of the knowledgeable folks on this forum can suggest which software you might consider.
By the way, what area of the country are you in? Maybe there is someone on the forum not too far from you.
-ORbystander
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-05 23:58
While a C Clarinet is definitely on my wishlist, oh yes, I thought through all this recently and decided it would be best to stick with the Bb and get good on it, --that is First. I read so many things about intonation problems with many of the ones out there and various other considerations, and I felt I would be going in the wrong direction, at least right now too soon to know what I am doing.
But regarding all of this per my inquiry above, I believe there is a place where one attains some kind of competency of clarinet playing where one will be able to know the scales and be in the realm of playing along decently with the chord method as mentioned above. I do realize that people who do play this way, really are limited themselves (that is I mean without sheet music advantages and at the same time the sheet music people can be limited in not playing the other way enough) and it is easy to hear that just rarely are melody lines played out, I don't know how to explain it, but a lot of people I know don't really play any sheet music whatsoever. They just play by ear OR IN KEYS. Work out the notes, and sometimes find better ones as they play. But I am at a loss how one would just play a melody line on the fly while playing a new song that may have been only played once before or even brand new to the church. I do believe the secret, so to speak, is in the practice of scales and knowing the keys...it just has to be...and this is where these people can play so well, because it seems like once a key is announced, everyone just plays those harmonic notes or something of that nature, and it becomes fail proof. Yet, my observation is that, for example, if one plays improvising in the key of C, I have sheet music in C that occasionally has random sharps and flats, and these of course are what make the song special with these accents so to speak. So, in a way this confuses me all the more, because how does it work then, to stay in Key and yet know when to play the notes not in the scale of that key?
But it probably is evident to all, that I am way, way, ahead of myself. And that is the problem...probably all of this will become clear when I advance more into the realm of knowing scales and all of them by heart, hearing the differences, and what can go together and what does not, that is by sheet music and by hearing it and reconciling the two. Perhaps that is how I look at music to a degree, more like mechanically and mathematically. I don't want to go in the direction of just winging it and playing basics forever...which is how I perceive some of what I see...perhaps unnecessarily overwhelmed
Karen MSC
Post Edited (2011-11-06 17:14)
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Author: justme
Date: 2011-11-06 04:51
"I read so many things about intonation problems with many of the ones out there and various other considerations."
From what I read I don't think that you're going to have any intonation problems with the Lyrique 570 C clarinet, in fact far from it! I have seen complaints of this nature from some other C clarinets though.
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-11-06 13:20
Ed Palanker wrote,
>>The simple answer is NO. I've been playing professionally in a symphony for 50 years now and the only time that has ever happened, and it's extremely rare, is if we did a vocal piece and the singer asked for it to go up or down a step because of the range, never in anything else. >>
Singers (especially sopranos and tenors) do ask for transpositions, though, so anyone who might play in a pit orchestra needs to learn to transpose and may have to do it on the fly in rehearsals. I worked at the Metropolitan Opera for four months in 1967, shortly after the move to Lincoln Center. I worked upstairs in the National Council offices (fundraising outfit) and rarely had direct contact with any of the musicians, but I did encounter that transposition phenomenon once when I was eating lunch in the Beaux Arts Café across the street.
Two orchestra musicians sitting behind me started grumbling about one singer in particular. They referred to him only as "he" and "il divo," so I'm not completely sure to whom they referred, and won't reveal my guesswork here! Usually singers want parts written down to lower pitch so they won't scream their high notes, but evidently this gent had asked for his part to be written *up* to show off his most stratospheric notes -- and he wanted it publicized that his part had been written up per his request, so that music critics wouldn't mistake his C for the written B (or whatever it was), assume it was nothing special and dismiss it without comment. Meanwhile, the soprano who had to sing a duo with him objected most vigorously, and of course il divo had responded by threatening her that if she succeeded in thwarting him, he'd make sure the reporters all knew she couldn't sing up to his level. Since I didn't see any report of murder in the newspapers, I assume they all worked things out with a minimum of eye-gouging ....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-11-06 13:22)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-11-06 16:43
This sounds like pure ego or an attempt at sheer brilliance. But from my limited experience years ago as a voice student and choral singer, I know that sometimes transpositions are done (or requested) to accommodate the singer's register break, the particular half-step in each person's voice where it naturally flips over into head voice. Trained singers spend a lot of time learning to get over that "passage" smoothly without a sudden change in quality, but sometimes a half-step difference in the key can avoid awkwardness at a crucial point in the melodic line.
Karl
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