 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 18:52
I have picked up an old clarinet that has no name associated with it. It looks to be an albert system horn in wood with the original thread wrapped tenons. I am thinking about restoring it and would like some information on the instrument and relative value before beginning restoration. I would not like to start a restoration if that will detract from the value of the instrument. Any help would be appreciated. You can reach me at :
J_mcbride@wowway.com
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-14 19:19
Unfortunately if there is no maker's name assosciated with it then it has minimal value. In unrestored condition it may be worth ~$25-$50 depending on how well it was made and it's current condition. After restoration it might be worth ~$200 but only if it is a low pitch instrument and plays reasonably well. There is basically no demand for no-name instruments. A basic overhaul will cost you ~$250, more if it needs more than just pads and corks (very likely) and more still you want a full cosmetic restoration as well.
Basically the instrument will never be worth the amount of money you will have invested in it. If you really want an antique clarinet for your collection and are convinced that this is the one you want (i.e. you never plan to sell it) then a restoration may be worthwhile, otherwise I would recommend saving your money.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 19:28
I am a repair tech so I will do the work myself. I dont expect to sell or even play it. I would like to see some resources on restoring the wood to original, I can handle most of the rest. I did notice that the cups are real shallow for newer style pads. That could be interesting.
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-14 19:35
Per the internet, I totally agree with Steve about the comparison with what is out there and the value.
I looked at the photos a couple of times and going completely out on a limb...and there is one thing that is really hard to tell without me holding it in my hands...is that wood? And if it is, it does look pretty dense, if that truly is wood. I can't tell as I said.
This might be an element of it worth considering...if that is wood??
For if it is, it could be select wood???
What do you think it is?
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 19:39
it is wood and looks to have been lacquered in the past which I understand was normal way back when. It is fairly heavy wood but am not sure how to determine the type of wood.
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-14 19:44
Oh, wow, we were writing at the same time! I see you are also talking about the "wood".
And come to think about it, recently I think there has been talk here about oil and oil cleaning wood products, but I would venture to say, this is a real touchy proposition...you certainly would not want to hurt the wood or crack it.
I would study out some of the things about wood, per dialogue on violins and guitars to get a feel of what is going on with wood, vibrations, grains, and all that before diving in. That lead weight look to it, just might be what you want in it for a clarinet.
Can't wait to see what you do with this!
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 19:47
this may take a while. I will need to get access to a lather or milling machine to correct or replace a broken tenon and the bell looks to need some repair as it is cracked on both sides to the bottom! afraid to take the tenon ring off of it. Not sure if I can adequately pin it. All keys look good with the original finish and the springs are all in place. NOticed that the cups for the pads are real shallow. Not even sure that newer pads will even work on them. So much to learn with dealing with vintage instruments.
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-14 20:04
Hi, just to say, I see that you wrote wood in your first message...I am sorry...I missed reading that...LOL...
But as far as the bell, you might want to just buy a new one?
Secondly, I do believe I see online about three different thicknesses that you can buy in pads. However, if you have really shallow pads, why not make your own? There are leathers, spongy rubber materials, and other things that come to mind that might work. Such as cork. Some corks mold to shape rather easily, like for stoppers on trumpets.
And of course you can layer and glue and make your own pads to thickness you need, perhaps??
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-14 20:15
wjulaxer13 wrote:
> this may take a while. I will need to get access to a lather or
> milling machine to correct or replace a broken tenon and the
> bell looks to need some repair as it is cracked on both sides
> to the bottom! afraid to take the tenon ring off of it. Not
> sure if I can adequately pin it. All keys look good with the
> original finish and the springs are all in place. NOticed that
> the cups for the pads are real shallow. Not even sure that
> newer pads will even work on them. So much to learn with
> dealing with vintage instruments.
I would strongly recommend against using a milling machine to bore out the end of a new joint to accept a new tenon. When using a borring head on a mill you will want the part to be supported as close to the cutter as possible and this would be difficult to do with a part as long as a clarinet joint.
Your best bet would be to find a large lathe and run the joint through the spindle bore with only the broken end emerging from the chuck. This would be the most rigid setup and provide the best results. Most lathes with a swing of 11" or geater will have a spinlde bore of at least 1.375" and will work for this purpose.
As for the bell, most have wood that is too thin to pin effectively as you have already noticed. You might want to try a banding repair using carbon fiber. There was a good thread a few weeks ago where Chris P posted some very nice looking pictures of carbon fiber banding repairs on some bells. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=356453&t=355348
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 20:20
all good ideas, I will read up on it and talk to my old mentor. 48 years of reed repairs should give him some reasonable thoughts on the subject. I have watched him do magic with tenon and bore repair. I will guarantee that I will be doing some significant research before I start this project. I dont recall him making pads but I would bet he has. thank you all for the suggestions. if you have more ideas, please let me know.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 20:24
steveG, I have been looking at 7x12 or 7x12 mini lathes for my needs. If I understand you correctly, this will not be adequate. The spindle size of the mini's is about 3/4 ".
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-14 21:37
wjulaxer13 wrote:
> steveG, I have been looking at 7x12 or 7x12 mini lathes for my
> needs. If I understand you correctly, this will not be
> adequate. The spindle size of the mini's is about 3/4 ".
No they won't be adequate for a lot of the work you will want to do. Since the bore size is small you would need to clamp one end of a clarinet joint in the check and support the other end with a stead rest if you wanted to bore out the tenon. Unfortunately to do this you would need a lathe with a longer bed than the mini lathes have.
If you want to buy a lathe I would recommend trying to find a used metal lathe with a swing of 11" or greater. Most of these will have a spindle bore of 1-3/8" which will enable you to use 5C collets (much more convenient then chucks for holding small parts) as well as run a part like a soprano clarinet joint through the bore. You can likely find one of these used lathes for a similar price to a new mini lathe and it would be a much more useful machine. Probably the best site to look at regarding lathes is: http://www.lathes.co.uk/ . You will find good information on most brands here.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-14 23:31
thanks so much for the info steveg. I am going to start looking to see what i can find. i am getting excited about this project!
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-10-15 00:00
just looking at the register key and the F/C on the upper joint, does anyone else think 'german, late C19'? or possibly a german/american maker of the period such as William Meinl?
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-15 01:48
the only reference I have for a Meinl clarinet is from a 1901 trade catalog. The only model it MAY match would be the model 360 from that catalog. (Grenadilla wood, 17 hammered german silver keys with an extra E flat key for the little finger of the right hand). If I counted correctly ( one key is jointed) there are 17 keys. That is not saying that it wasnt from a later year. If there is someone more familiar with this style of instrument they can count the keys and verify that description would be accurate.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-15 01:50
also, can anyone tell me if it was normal for a maker to NOT put their logo and serial number on instruments they made? This instrument has neither any where on the horn.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-15 02:45
The more I look the more questions that I have. Here are some for you restorers out there.
- was it normal for manufacturers to lacquer their instruments at the turn of the century? This was has a finish to it that resembles lacquer. It is dark, almost black, and somewhat 'shiny' with what looks like chiping like you get in paint
- the tuning barrel is significantly shorter than any of the more modern barrels I have in my inventory. Would this significantly change the pitch of the instrument.
- i noticed that it used a cord winding in place of cork for its tenon seals. But I also notice that there is residue of cork in the receivers as well. The tenons are very loose even with the wrapping and I wonder if cork was used as well in the receivers to seal the tenons.
So many questions that I just don't know about.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-10-15 07:49
I've had several French clarinets from that period with a shiny hard laquer finish. As you say, it chips and looks unsightly. I lightly sanded one with a damaged finish and then oiled it, and it looks OK. Sometimes this grain-filling laquer was used to disguise poor wood. I've also come across cord windings on the tenons on old instruments. Flutes seem to use it a lot, but I've also seen it on clarinets. I had one where the cord wrapping were over what appeared to have once been thin felt. It had been compressed down to paper thinness by time and the wrapping. I replace all these with cork.
Tony F.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-15 11:02
interesting you mentioned the thin felt. I noticed what looked almost like a thin masking tape or leather like material on one tenon. I wasnt sure what it was. Maybe that answers that question.
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-17 18:17
I discovered something about pads...there is a lot of variable that can occur with installment of them. Where they end up sitting in the cup is greatly affected by the adhesive quantity that is used. Just wanted you to know that. I saw that a pad placed inside a cup can vary as much as an eighth of an inch I believe by how much adhesive is in the cup. I think they are made (the pads) to just float on top of the adhesive and harden in place as it cools), but if you use a little adhesive and press it down a little, it will just barely exceed the cup edge. So, I suspect if you have a lot of concern about your shallow cups, perhaps you do not have to worry as much as I thought previously. Conduct an experiment on one of them and see what happens...you might be surprised...that is, using just a little adhesive, etc.
I also suspect that your fittings might be easier if they are indeed very shallow cups, because they will be laying on the clarinet flatter by the original plan for them, making it easier I think because it does not have to meet more rounded-ness that other clarinets might require when adjusting pads to not leak. Unless they really are rounded, then cork might be the answer. ????
And I just want to add, I surely do have an appreciation for these repairmen after seeing how refined this craftmanship process is indeed.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-17 18:26
I agree. my mentor was a magician with various materials. Take something
that looked to be a total loss and making something of it that you couldn't
tell from the original. I am going to have a talk with him on my tenon
repair questions. He has seen it all over his 50 years of reed repair.
BTW, I have already started to test out various pads and adhesives. I will
likely have to go with a thinner pad ( I use medium woven) but it is doable.
still wish i knew what the instrument is.
thank you
john
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Author: mankan
Date: 2011-10-19 20:52
Funny. I have a clarinet that looks quite similar. It belonged to my wifes grandfather, so its probably almost hundred years old. Its playable and I like it. Tuning is C. I bought an Eb-clar mouthpeace since the old one (in wood) was unplayable. It only needs some more adjustments, a longer barrel for instance to keep in tune. I'm looking for a handy craftsman to make that barrel.
mankan
Post Edited (2011-10-19 20:54)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-10-19 20:54
I had a clarinet similar to that branded "Chicago", so it doesn't necessarily have to be European mfg.
Bob Draznik
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Author: mankan
Date: 2011-10-19 20:57
If you want I can send you a picture by email. (I tried to use the attachments function but cant get it right.)
mankan
Post Edited (2011-10-19 21:03)
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2011-10-20 03:26
i had the same problem the other day. I would be happy to see the pictures. I really want to find out more about this instrument.
J_mcbride@wowway.com
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-10-20 13:05
Bob: I was looking at the second F key on the upper joint. I've only seen that on european (non french) clarinets or ones made by german-influenced makers such as Meinl. It still appears on Oehler-system clarinets. Chicago MI Co did import some clarinets from Bohland a& Fuchs.
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The Clarinet Pages
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