 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JPMarcellus2011
Date: 2011-10-28 01:36
I just had a lesson with a new teacher. He noticed that I lock my ring fingers when I begin to play technical passages. How can I fix this problem?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-28 09:46
Dear JPMarcellus2011,
I'm not sure what you mean by 'lock,' but finger issues (actually ANY ingrained habit) is best taken care of with S-L-O-W, methodical practice. You concentrate on the correct position (tension or lack thereof) and repeat a pattern or passage over and over at a very slow tempo (or no tempo at all, just note to note). I'm not even that much of a 'move the metronome up' kinda guy. Once you've done this for a five solid minutes, just stop, shake it out (or just forget it) and try the same pattern or passage at normal speed.
The great Robert Marcellus used to say, "It's NEVER too late to practice slowly."
................Paul Aviles
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2011-10-28 12:26
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> The great Robert Marcellus used to say, "It's NEVER too late to
> practice slowly."
Actually, he told me that there comes a time when it is "too late to practice".
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Author: William
Date: 2011-10-28 14:32
Since everyones fingers are not the same, is there really a "correct" set of finger positions. I would think that the real focus should be on playing the correct note with the correct rhythm--if that can be done with "locked" ring fingers, what's the big deal??? I believe that slow, focused practice is more important than watching your hands in a mirror.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-28 22:34
*A caveat- please excuse the over-abundance of quotation marks in my post. Certain words should not have a concrete meaning in some contexts.
"Fixing" an incorrect finger position/movement is a tricky issue. Being told what is "correct" by an outside observer may be "spot on" in certain contexts; yet even if the advice is spot on, unless the experience of "proper" movement is felt, a "correction" will never take hold in the hands of the one being corrected.
-Just an example. I golf; not incredibly well, but enough to know that I'm not all that great. I've been told, and heard, numerous times that the downswing should initiate with a forward weight shift and the elbow dropping into the side- "into the slot" to get the swing on plane- and then simply released from there. Well, until I actually experienced what it felt like, there was no way I could ever hope to truly understand what the point of it was, and how to repeat it. Now, being a recreational golfer, my percentage of actually doing it may not be what I want, but I know when I get it "right", as I have previously experienced it.
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I must say that William is on the right track with the false-hood of an ideal/hand position.
Aside from the obvious differing structures of everybody's hands, something overlooked is that varying passages may call for a different "personal" hand position; and that can change greatly.
Being in a remote setting we cannot speak of the "correct-ness" of what your instructor is attempting to correct. If locking your ring fingers is placing your hands in a position where the pinky keys cannot be reached for a given passage, then it is something that should be addressed- as necessary. If locking the finger is causing un-productive tension which could lead to physical maladies, tendonitis for example, then it should also be addressed.
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*Now, after all of that, we come back to your actual question: How can you "fix" it? (I am assuming that it is viewed as a problem, even though you only say your instructor noticed this, as you seek a solution.)
Well first, you, or your instructor, should find exercises- or even better actual musical passages (which may call for differing finger movement) to allow you to experience what the "correct" movement is for you.
Once a passage is selected, whatever it may be, we come to the crux of the situation where you seem to be at a loss: how can you practice "correct" motion. Well, this may sound over simplified, but you experiment to feel your "correct" motion and repeat.....
-To expand a bit: Simply practicing slowly is, not in and of itself, the end all-be all if there is no clear purpose. You can practice slowly and never get anywhere if the motion you are trying to "learn" doesn't fit your architecture. But, if you wish to practice slowly, find the motion that is comfortable that allows you to play the passage at hand (be it scales, trills, or whatever you choose) and "repeat with purpose."
Now I do not wish to be meta-physical or theoretical about this, but "repeating with purpose" is where you can find your own path. You may wish to take a small group of 3 or 4 notes and play them with altered rhythms. You may wish to exaggerate the finger motion, i.e. lifting a greater distance and returning with some authority. Or moving the finger with an extremely slow fluid motion. Perhaps playing with a sharp, quick motion even though you are playing at a slow metronome setting...... I could go on, but I hope you get the point. You are free to experiment and find what works for you- practice with a purpose. and trust me, you will know when you find your "slot" ......and what works for you may differ from passage to passage.
Repeating with a purpose is the key, whichever method you may choose, to experience what you need to. Here an instructor should be flexible and work with you to allow this- not beat you into submission. (I cannot for the life of me tell you what my finger motion feels like.)
F.W.I.W. I play with an "incorrect" right hand thumb position. I have been told, and read, ad-nauseaum, that the thumb-rest should be placed at the point where the cuticle ends. Well, that is not what is comfortable and works for me. I place the thumb-rest a bit on the right side on the knuckle. I have large hands and this allows me the freedom of finger and wrist motion necessary; and it is comfortable. Come hell or high water I will not change just because it is viewed as the less than ideal placement. I would defy the best set of ears out in the hall to tell me where my thumb-rest falls. (Watch some players closely: in the "heat of battle" their own finger motion doesn't conform to their own lofty ideals!!! .........or tell Jim Furyk that his un-orthodox golf swing should be changed. He will simply laugh in your face as he goes to the bank to cash the $10 million dollar pay check he won last year. ;-)
-Jason
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-28 22:41
a quick addendum;
Just as the reed doesn't know how it is receiving air, the clarinet doesn't "know" what finger motion opens, or closes, a tone-hole.
(within a reasonable range quite obviously. Cover, or uncover, or tone-hole too slowly and problems arise clearly. "Slap" your finger down and a clear "pop" may be heard. ......perhaps even these skills could be needed in certain contexts though............)
Post Edited (2011-10-28 22:46)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-29 04:20
Alright guys, could SOMEONE please tell me what a LOCKED ring finger is????
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-29 05:52
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Alright guys, could SOMEONE please tell me what a LOCKED ring
> finger is????
>
>
>
> ...................Paul Aviles
1. Forcing the interphalangeal joints in the digitus annularis to remain in a fully extended state.
i.e. the finger is completely straightened, or "flat", at all times.
2. The unfortunate condition one finds oneself in upon marriage.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-29 13:42
Ok, so this is what us old timers used to call 'broken noses,' or 'broken fingers.'
This is WRONG because it hurts your hand in the long run, not because the tone hole knows your finger is in the wrong position. In golf, when one has bad knees, one plays worse (ie Tiger Woods).
I'm just sayin'.
The alternate stance is a gentle, natural curve to the fingers which gives you MORE strength and makes finger to finger coordination easier (by the way, this is the way you hold your fingers when your arms hang naturally at your side..........try straight, tense fingers when you're relaxed and not thinking about it - sounds silly doesn't it?).
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-10-29 13:48
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Ok, so this is what us old timers used to call 'broken noses,'
> or 'broken fingers.'
Must be a regional colloquialism. I'm an old timer (well, closer to 60 now than I'd like to think about) and lived in the northeast, Midwest, and western areas of the US. Never heard that one. Now added to my list.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-29 18:51
Paul Aviles wrote : "This is WRONG because it hurts your hand in the long run, not because the tone hole knows your finger is in the wrong position. In golf, when one has bad knees, one plays worse (ie Tiger Woods).
I'm just sayin'."
Paul, must we speak in absolutes...... and then depart with a glib adieu as if it removes the burden of supporting what was said.
As I wrote, it is a problem if it causes unproductive tension and harm- but that is so obvious that it shouldn't even need be said. Yet I've seen photos of some quite famous clarinetists, highly regarded for their "technique", with completely a flat finger or 2 at times.
Perhaps I should have left the word force out of it as it carries too many negative connotations: "Maintain the finger in an extended state." happier? I'm not exempt from peer review either.
As for golf with bad knees, watch how Byron Nelson dealt with it; or Ben Hogan with bad legs after his car crash. Then take a look at Fred Couples seemingly effortless, silky swing and you wonder how in the world he could have such terrible back problems as a result of it; appearances can deceive. (Consequently, Tigers' poor game is not a direct result of his bad knees, though the reverse Can be said. Aside from the obvious loss of the mental fortitude he used to have, watch his right pinky fingernail. .....and perhaps his crappy putting game.)
"The alternate stance is a gentle, natural curve to the fingers which gives you MORE strength and makes finger to finger coordination easier (by the way, this is the way you hold your fingers when your arms hang naturally at your side..........try straight, tense fingers when you're relaxed and not thinking about it - sounds silly doesn't it?)."
Could there not be a middle ground between your naturally curved, and a flat state? Or varying degrees of curvature needed for a particular passage?
And conversely, I don't walk around forming my embouchure during everyday life, so such an unnatural act should never be applied to the clarinet, no?
solo 'stoy diciendo........
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-10-29 18:52)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-10-29 19:34
FWIW, although it's nothing to do directly with a clarinet, I have noticed that the bagpipers I have watched universally seem to play with their fingers straight and an area much farther from the finger tip actually covers the hole than is the case for most clarinetists. I actually heard one player, while teaching some bagpipe fundamentals to a younger prospective player, "correct" the younger one's curved fingers.
Karl
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-29 20:07
Karl,
It may not directly correlate to the clarinet, but it does directly speak of what I was trying to get at.
The bagpiper is not maintaining the "natural" curvature of the fingers, yet is able to "properly" play the bagpipes. As for the bagpiper to bag-piping related tendonitis ratio I cannot speak......
and now for something completely unrelated: What is the definition of a true gentleman? One who knows how to play the bagpipes, but refrains. (O.K. sorry for that one.)
Actually, one of the most moving things I have ever seen occurred at the U.S. Open at Bethpage in 2000. In a memorial service for Payne Stewarts' untimely death (the 1999 U.S. Open Champion at Pinehurst), the tournament began on a chilly Thursday morning with a lone bagpiper marching down the No. 1 fairway into a thick fog bank; nothing but an echoing sound resonating through the silent golf course. Still gives me goose-bumps, and even brought a tear to my 21 year old eyes at the time. En paz descanse.........
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-10-29 20:07)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-29 21:54
Paul,
Something else dawned on me. It speaks of golf but parallels what I am trying to get to about what we can say some must do.
Tiger's golf game, competitively speaking, was at its' best when he was working with Butch and Claude Harmon. But for some reason, which nobody knows, he decided to swing swing coaches and went to Hank Haney.
Haney then began to change Tiger's swing to one with much more focus on circular rotation. This resulted in an incredible amount of body torque which caused him to lock, or brace, his left knee at impact so he could square the club-face. That he still won with these changes, but was not as dominant, well I am not sure why he changed at all- but it's not my place to judge. What I can say is that Haney should have noticed, with the increasing knee problems that the changes caused, that the locking knee was an issue. However that was a specific case, pertaining to one person; and Haney had the ability to see what was occurring in person- a luxury we are not afforded here. -Haney should have noted this, but did not. Tiger is inconsequentially with Sean O'Hair now.
Where Tiger was led astray was placing complete trust in someone whom told him what he must do. Even though he won far less, he continued to follow Haney's tutelage for years with complete trust. Even the best can be lead astray with improper advice.
In this setting we have, telling someone that they must do something, or that an action is flat out WRONG is completely misguided. We cannot personally see what one is doing, and telling them what they should feel is impossible. In a one-on-one setting with someone, if I note that a physical action is detrimental, then I will address it. But if something works and on the surface appears different from what I do, why in the world would I say it is flat out WRONG or try to change it.
-A personal example. In the "famous" long solo in the 2nd mvmt. of Beethoven's Sixth I flatten my left ring finger a bit for the G-A trill. I fought trying to do it with the "ideal" naturally curved fingers, but never found the control I needed. By allowing my finger to flatten a bit for that passage, I free my control of the trill; and importantly this allows me to "ignore" the finger motion and focus on the concurrent color/dynamic change. ....The color change that is necessary to conclude the solo, and more importantly pave the way for the following music. (These changes will clearly vary from hall to hall etc... but by taking my focus off my stupid finger I can react to what is going on around me.)
Is my action in the bar wrong? Well I'll accept that judgement if necessary. Yet, all I care about how the music exists, in its' entirety, in the hall. That is not theoretical, or pedagogical..... it is a personal, necessary action. (and no, it causes no harm.)
FWIW the golf ball doesn't know what your swing looks like. It only knows what the loft and position of the club-face, coupled with the vector of and amount kinetic energy, that it receives is.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-10-29 21:55)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-29 22:43
Jason wrote, in part:
>> A personal example. In the "famous" long solo in the 2nd mvmt. of Beethoven's Sixth I flatten my left ring finger a bit for the G-A trill. I fought trying to do it with the "ideal" naturally curved fingers, but never found the control I needed. By allowing my finger to flatten a bit for that passage, I free my control of the trill...>>
Yes, me too. And the reason for that, I find, is that flattening the finger sets up an opposition between muscle groups that allows larger forces to control the trill, which can then be both better controlled, and -- if need be -- faster. (A more extreme example is the use of the whole forearm to trill from clarion A to Bb.)
The crucial thing is to be able to CHOOSE to do these things, rather than to have them be an unavoidable part of ones way of playing the instrument. So, practising having a finger flat when it's useful to do that, and curved when it's useful to do THAT -- the usefulness being judged according to the musical context -- can only enlarge our playing world.
Tony
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