 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2011-09-21 20:18
Hello all, I need some help:
In undergrad, my teacher was a major mouthpiece craftsman, so I played on his mouthpieces and loved them at the time. When I went on to my masters I had the freedom to try other equipment out there and after two years of experimenting I am still confused! I played three different mouthpieces throughout my 2 years Masters degree: M13lyre, M15 and M30 (all three with 13 series).
M13lyre: love the sound and intonation (my favorite of the three I played), BUT because of the close facing, articulation always held me back, even with a lot of work and practice on that particular skill.
M15 13: love the articulation, but I felt there was no flexibility, too much "top" or "highs" in the sound and the sound was a little too narrow for my taste.
M30 13: nice articulation, but for me the intonation was funky (especially the throat tones) and I always found myself biting, also thought the sound was kind of "huffy" or "tubby"
The M13lyre is my favorite of the 3, but articulation is in my opinion too important of a trade off, especially with every audition having Mendelssohn Scherzo on the list. Articulation has always been my Achilles heel.
Have any of you played the B40 or B40 lyes? Or 5RV? Or is there anything out there that someone suggests I try? I realize there will be trade offs with everything, but something like articulation is something that, in my opinion, I cannot give up, same thing with intonation as well.
Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts/advice.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-09-21 21:40
i have a similar problem as you. i also play on an M13 Lyre and have problems in articulation speed.
however, i don't think it's due to the close facing.. i have two kaspars and one has even smaller tip-opening than the M13 Lyre, and the other bigger than M13 Lyre. But both give much easier articulations. it's something else to the M13 Lyre.. I think it's more like the "responsive" time of it. i feel there is a slight delay of the response time in M13 lyre and doesn't feel as "crisp" when i try to tongue fast.
all that said, the M13 lyre sounds so nice!
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Author: William
Date: 2011-09-21 21:51
Response, articulation and musical flexability are what I look for in a mouthpiece. Next consideration, intonation, because this can be effectively controlled with the embouchure and oral voiceing. The aspect I worry the least about is the basic sound--because, there is no "perfect" sound anyhow. If I can play expressively, articulate cleanly and play in tune, that is the mouthpiece for me. Try as many as you can and select wisely........
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-09-22 00:49
M15 wins.
If you haven't recorded and heard yourself on each side by side, do it. I did it and was able to clearly pick out a winner between two mouthpieces that sounded "close" in my head without a recording to listen to.
Also, I would pick the mouthpiece that you like everything EXCEPT for the articulation, and send that mouthpiece to a mouthpiece maker and see if they can improve the articulation. I read somewhere on this board something about thinning the rails can improve articulation, or making the very tip of the reed just a little thinner (VERY tip of the reed, don't mess too far down the reed). Especially Vandoren V12s. Seems a little thick.
Glad you at least got it down to three. For me, I'm sticking with the M15 for now and for a long time.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-09-22 00:56
Email me. I can help you a lot.
savagesax@aol.com
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-09-22 00:57)
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Author: Evans
Date: 2011-09-22 16:03
I sort of have some experience with the B40. I use a V360, mouthpiece, which is the current equivalent the B40/B45 mouthpiece. I've been using it since the Fall of last year and it's been working wonders. I would highly recommend it.
Evan B. Stanfill
1971 Noblet 45
Vandoran V360 Mouthpiece
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Author: RefacerMan
Date: 2011-09-22 19:03
Clarinetmc,
When a mouthpiece has a good facing on it but does not articulate easily it is often because the baffle right under the tip is not shaped correctly. The way to fix this is to find someone who can not only face mouthpieces but voice them too by working on the baffle. The late Everett Matson was a master at reshaping the baffle. Vandoren mouthpieces usually play pretty well just as they are but can really be improved by being hand faced by the right person. If you really like the sound and tuning of the M13Lyre, I'd try having it worked on to see if the articulation can be improved to your liking.
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Author: W&MClarinetist
Date: 2011-09-23 03:49
I'm also a masters student in a similar mouthpiece crisis so I feel your pain!
I had a B40 lyre for several years-loved the tone, but over time lost some of the flexibility in the upper register and had to push too much. But definitely could get a very nice, clean sound for many years. It's a very open tip though, especially compared to the M13s.
I've also played around some with the M15 and found what you did-loved the articulation, but the tone left a lot to be desired for me.
I then switched to the M30 lyre, which I have been enjoying but have recently been having issues getting reeds to cooperate-I like a lot of resistance and can't seem to find the right pairing at the moment. I would perhaps suggest trying the M30 lyre or M30 lyre 13 because it gives a nice rounded tone if you've been enjoying the M13 lyre but want something a little more open.
The other thing I might suggest looking into would be the M30D. It's a German mouthpiece, but in the little experience I've had with it, I loved it. It falls in between the M30s and the B40s as far as tip opening goes. I actually have some on order right now that I'm really looking forward to getting to experiment with this weekend!
Just keep trying is the best advice I can give! Also, I might recommend checking out Vandoren's website to evaluate what the tip openings are on the mouthpieces you've played to perhaps try to find something in between. I've found it's helped me a lot recently trying to determine what I think I'm looking for: http://www.vandoren.fr/en/clarinetbb.html
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2011-09-23 14:26
I recently ordered some M15 13's from Muncy and will hopefully find something that I am looking for...I think it will be an adjustment, but articulation on the M15 really is terrific...It's really splitting hairs when it comes to sound on the M13 Lyre and M15 (in my opinion) and after a few days I will probably end up sounding like myself anyways. Thanks so much for your suggestions, I really appreciate it, off to the practice room for me!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-23 14:51
Vandoren makes good mouthpieces, and many fine players use them. I've liked the 5RV Lyres I've tried, which have the slightly open lay I prefer.
Vandorens are made by machine. I think that hand-finished mouthpieces are usually better, because they are tweaked individually. I play on mouthpieces by the late, great Kalmen Opperman, and I many times sat in his studio while he finished a mouthpiece so that it matched my clarinet and my way of blowing. I think it's almost certain that top players who use Vandoren have them hand-tweaked to play their best.
Several makers are on this board, including Walter Grabner, Greg Smith, Clark Fobes. In my opinion, a mouthpiece from one of them will be a noticeable step up from a standard Vandoren.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2011-09-23 21:37
I much prefer custom mouthpieces...I studied with Richard Hawkins and played his mouthpieces for my entire undergrad...but most craftsmen are using zinner blanks which run on the high side of the pitch for me...Vandoren keeps everything at a nice 440 for me...trade offs, but pitch is too important in my opinion...frustrating, I love my custom mouthpieces so much, but I am constantly sharp when I use them!
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2011-09-24 00:48
clarinetmc, your experience sounds remarkably similar to my own. I played M13-Lyres and similar custom pieces for about 15 years. I always achieved a beautiful, classic, orchestral sound, but struggled with articulation and the lower altissimo register (c#-g# above the staff). The articulation issue drove me nuts. No matter how much I practiced, I was always a notch or two on the slow side. Not to sound overly dramatic, but I took over 30 professional auditions and nearly conceded my career to having a not-quite-fast-enough tongue.
Long story short, I ended up switching to B40-Lyre 13. It has some drawbacks, but gives me the extra click I need to play Mendelssohn Scherzo etc. convincingly. It accomodates much softer reeds than the M13-Lyre and there is less risk that the reed will close off. It also has a beautiful high register and allows for many different colors. I was initially worried that the sound would be a problem in auditions, but I enjoyed playing it so much that I didn't care. As it turns out, of the four professional auditions I've taken since the switch (all in the U.S.), I was a finalist in the first two and then won the fourth. Needless to say, I couldn't be happier.
I still miss certain sound qualities of my M13-Lyre from time to time (why does this feel like a diary entry?), but I've made a variety of adjustments and am overall very happy with the way I sound now. And btw, while I love my B40-Lyre 13, I dislike the M30 and M30-Lyres I've tried. I realize they're all similar, but as you say, M30 always feels stuffy and hard to play. Just keep trying mouthpiece and reed combos, and you'll no doubt find something that suits you. Hopefully sooner rather than later. I also have a regular B40-Lyre (not 13) that works great at 442. I wish we'd switch to 442 in the U.S., but that's a whole other topic.
Edited for typos
Post Edited (2011-09-24 00:58)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-24 01:22
claaaaaarinet!!!! -
Bravo. Which audition did you win? Did you take the job? Please tell us about yourself.
Ken Shaw
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2011-09-24 02:14
Hi Ken,
2nd/Eb in the Waterloo-Cedar Falls Symphony Orchestra (Iowa). I accepted the position (2011-12 season will be my first) and am commuting from Minneapolis - about 40 services per year. The orchestra is great, and winning an audition has really given me a boost.
My career thus far in a nutshell: I did my B.A. and M.M. at Yale, D.M.A. at University of MN, and then some post-doc studies in Belgium. I've subbed in professional orchestras over the years, but had never won a position outright until now. Feels terrific!
Dan Friberg
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2011-09-24 04:24
the B40 Lyre seems to be really popular with a lot of people...something I will def. look into...I really just need to find something and stick with it...if anyone finds the "perfect" mouthpiece out there, let us all know!
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Author: marcia
Date: 2011-09-24 18:15
if anyone finds the "perfect" mouthpiece out there, let us all know!
But what is "perfect" for one, may be quite unsuitable for another.
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2011-09-25 06:21
If you can, try a Fobes Europa #4. It is very similar to a B40 only IMO much better. Certainly worth the time.
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Author: clarinetwizard
Date: 2011-09-25 09:06
off topic but it does have to do with a mouthpiece: I do remember a long time ago, a sax player accidentally bumped into my mouthpiece and broke it! Oh and it was right before a concert! AND I had a solo.
oh the memories LOL
owner of blythpost.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-09-26 01:00
You might have someone do some refacing to one of the M13 series. David McClune does a very nice job with these. I have a student who is using one and she found it much more comfortable to play than her stock M15.
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Author: clairmusic
Date: 2011-09-27 19:56
have u ever tried behn international mpc? they have great response, clarity, and play with ease. he was an old instructor of mine. I used to play on a bay. I've had my behn for 4 yrs. deff worth check n out. he also does refaceing. behn mouthpieces international. com. gd luck
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Author: epssax
Date: 2011-09-29 16:13
Congratulations! You are successful in a very competitive field.
Been playing clarinet 53 years. Studied with Jim Elliott and James Livingston in Louisville. Been a professional musician 51 years. Play a Buffet R-13. Also play a Buffet tenor sax, Martin Baritone sax, Jupiter also sax. www.thecountryclarinet.com
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