 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-12 17:33
Attachment: IMG_0974.JPG (197k)
Sometimes this happens and it is a reason I'm always considering synthetic reeds (haven't found one I liked enough yet). Sometimes there's nothing you can do but continue to play with the reed like this, since it's impossible to stop or replace it. Anyway, played the last part of a concert on this... I think slap tonguing is the mai nreason for it.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-06-12 18:12
I was at a recital by Charles Neidich where he simply stopped and said "This reed has died." He got another and went on as before. Nobody minded.
I always have a well-dampened reed in a holder in my shirt pocket or in a 35mm film canister clipped to the stand. It's even easier to keep a Legere or Forestone on hand, which can rescue you even if you don't use them regularly.
At a Cleveland Orchestra concert several (!) years back, the assistant concertmaster broke his E string at the start of the finale of the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. He had great fun climbing up off the fingerboard on the A string, and the players around him were nearly falling off their chairs with laughter, even though George Szell was standing right over them.
It's not a disaster -- it's a war story.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-12 19:58
> broke his E string
Was it Menuhin (or Grappelli?) they said would deliberately play on old strings just to get the chance to show off in this way? (Or am I thinking Paganini?)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-12 22:18
A botched slap tongue can do this pretty easily. There are two ways that I slap tongue... the way that I consider "correct", and the other way, that gives a 1 in 5 chance of killing a reed.
I can't recall ever having a reed break in concert for any other reason.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2011-06-13 03:01
I have had several vandorens develop cracks at the tip during concerts.
They were about 3 weeks old and I do a two week break in period with all of them. I generally struggle through with them and replace it when I can.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-13 04:28
This wasn't a recital, it was a group playing original/improvised music with films, in the dark too, so I couldn't stop or even see much really. I didn't notice it until after the concert. Probably happened in the last part and I did only very few slaps with the bass (which this is).
I know slap tonguing causes this but I can't really see how... it's just the tongue against the reed and releasing quickly, more or less. There isn't a part hitting the reed hard in that or any other area. I don't know... but it happens.
I guess I'll try more synthetic reeds since this happens too often in situations that I just have to keep playing. Even this one still plays. Maybe not as good as it could be but I can use if I have to. You just can't ask, for example, a few dancers and another player to stop in the middle of a concert/performance. Sometimes you can't stop in that moment and have to continue with the broken reed. I guess if it doesn't play at all then it's different, but it is always small breaks that you can play with just worse.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2011-06-13 08:55
Are you talking about about true slap-tonguing (meaning suction with the tongue and puff of air release) or a very fast "tongued" note?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 12:38
Another factor in reed breakage seems to be uneven grain in a reed. I use pretty much every reed in a box (because I'm a cheapskate) and have noticed that reeds with some wavy grains or some extra-thick grains tend to split lengthwise along those lines considerably before the reed shows obvious signs of wear or plays as if it's wearing out. These reeds feel smooth to the touch but the uneven grain shows when they're held up to a bright backlight. Since reeds with uneven grain also seem not to play as well (more prone to chirps; altissimo harder to get), maybe pro players (I'm an amateur) discard them without using them to begin with, but I can imagine a good hard slap-tongue would split those reeds.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-13 15:38
If your slap tongue is sloppy, it's easy for the tongue to pull too hard at the tip of the reed, bending it away. There shouldn't be too much sucking action.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: William
Date: 2011-06-13 15:50
"I'm always considering synthetic reeds (haven't found one I liked enough yet)."
I've been told that Forestone has a bass clarinet reed "in development" and will be available soon. Having had the opportunity to play some prototypes for the past year, I can tell you that they play very well on my Grabner CX_BS mpc (Buffet Prestige low C bass) and I use them everywhere. I used to play Legere #3's, but since trying these sample Forestone bass reeds, I've never gone back--not even once. Keep checking Forestone.com for updates.
Post Edited (2011-06-13 15:52)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 18:12
I find even a reed deserves a break some time. :-)
It does happen to me, fortunately mostly at the final ff of an encore piece. But I also found myself putting a new reed on after the first bar because I managed to bump my teeth against the reed upon "clamping on" for the first tone. Then I'm always glad I have no solo. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-13 22:03
clarinbass,
There are 2 "version" of slap tonguing. One is actual slap tonguing, the other is a simulation which can come very close in sound. (I cannot do a true slap tongue FWIW.)
True slap tonguing, which I cannot do well myself is explained in basic terms here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slap_tonguing
Harry Sparnaay uses this basic method, but I don't know if he has altered his personal approach a bit. When done correctly the resulting "pop" is extremely loud. When Harry Sparnaay does it, it is so loud that it feels like your ear drums are going to rupture if you sit very close.
The problem is so much pressure can be built up, which is then suddenly released and the reed will break as it is not strong enough to handle the energy transfer. However, it will snap completely in half in the middle of the reed, not chip at the tip as you showed in your attachment. In concerts, Harry Sparnaay does break reeds, he simply will stop and put a new one on and continue- just an occupational hazard. In fact, when learning to slap tongue, snapping reeds in half is a good indicator that you are doing it correctly. A synthetic reed may not break quite so easily.
Simulated slap tonging involves literally slapping your tongue against the reed with great force. This mimics the sound of true slap tonguing, but does not quite generate the extremely loud percussive sound.
I'm not sure which method you are using. I am guessing the second (or simulated) method, but correct me if I am wrong. With the picture you posted, it appears that when "slapping" the reed, your tongue got "stuck" on the tip and caused it to chip when pulled away.
Do some searches on youtube and you can find many videos demonstrating how to slap tongue the true way.
Alex, it doesn't matter which method you use if it generates the effect you need and you can count on not breaking your reed; but I have always heard the suction method I first wrote of as the "true/correct" way. It may be semantics, or 6 of one half a dozen of the other. I'm not good at either method myself.
-Jason
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-14 06:36
Buster, I'm familiar with both methods. Maybe you missed my post above in reply to Clarimeister where I wrote "What you call "true slap-tonguing"."
So I'm only referring here to the first method you described, what you also call "True slap tonguing".
I've heard Harry Sparnaay in a concert only once and I think he did some slap tonguing, but don't remember him or any other player do slap tonguing in any technically unusual way that I haven't heard many others do already.
I probably don't do it as loud as him or some others just because I don't. I rarely play very loud (at least in comparison with saxophone players I play with).
Re the other method of slapping the tongue against the reed to create the slap, I do this sometimes too, but not as often. It is different from my slap tonguing though I've heard others do it in a way that a little more similar.
William, I will probably try Legere and Forestone reeds again. I've played (on soprano clarinet) just Legere for a while and then just Forestone. Same for bass excepot I tried a Forestone tenor sax reed. I will look for their bass clarinet reeds when they have them. They were ok, but I never got a reed from either that responded as good for the entire range like I get with my regular reeds. I've tried some other synthetic reeds too.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-14 08:11
This reminds me of when I used to play Rico Royal on Bass and I had to change them every hour because they'd simply worn out
I have never learned slap tonguing. Sounds scary but fun. What's it for? Can you do it on bass without something exploding?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-15 00:47
In my 49 years as a pro it's happened to me twice. Once in the BSO at a "holiday" concert when I put the cap through the tip when making a quick change but managed to flatten it out and get through the half since I never bring extra bass reeds on stage. The other time was in a chamber music concert when on my first entrance I crushed the reed into my lower lip, real smart heh? I simply told the audience that I broke my reed, went back stage, put on my second and played away. I think that was even better than my number one, especially after the tip was all bent out of shape. Hey. life happenes. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-15 08:08
Both I'm referring to are suction based. One breaks reeds, the other does not. The one that breaks reeds has the suction provided by the entire mouth, while the one that does not has the suction provided by the tongue only, can be played with the mouth open, and can be used to start a note without significant acrobatics.
During the course of learning, I switched from the breaker to the non-breaker, a welcome change with reeds at $8 a pop. Went from breaking a reed every 5 slaps or so to reeds with hundreds of slaps still behaving fine.
Tricky to describe, as I'm not entirely sure what's happening, but I *think* this is the difference: With the suction-heavy reed-breaker slap, the suction is created between the tongue and reed, at which point the tongue is forcibly pulled away with the reed still attached, until it lets go and the reed thwacks on the mouthpiece. The more elegant non-breaker begins with the same tongue-reed suction, but proceeds more like a regular articulation, with an exhale-type focus, and some point in the process the reed is pulled away enough that it slaps back at the start of the note (or lack of note).
It's much easier to learn on contrabass than on soprano, fwiw.
Check this video for a demo of what your non-breaking slap should accomplish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEe7gSGkpZ0
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-15 18:53
>> Both I'm referring to are suction based <<
I assumed that and I understand both methods you describe. Yes, it's possible to do the slap itself with just the tongue, without the mouth doing anything really.
I found that either method can break reeds but sometimes doesn't. For me it's always the same type of breaks like in the photo, nothing like Buster described wuth the reed breaking in half. The photo shows a relatively bad one, mostly it's small breaks at the tip. Just a guess that at least 20% of my concerts/rehearsals end with a broken reed (or I replace in the middle when I can if it's bad).
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-15 20:20
Can you slap with your mouth open, though? There was a clear difference for me between thinking the mouth isn't doing anything and actually having to bust it out without the possibility of any mouth suction.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-15 20:21
Effectively, when I'm doing it properly, the fact that there is suction at work is an afterthought. It's just an articulation that I blow through.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-16 06:17
Hmm, dunno then. Just know that when I switched techniques I went from all my reeds looking exactly like yours to never having that problem again.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-17 04:13
>> Just know that when I switched techniques I went from all my reeds looking exactly like yours to never having that problem again. <<
Which doesn't mean that one of those methods breaks reeds and the other doesn't.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-17 06:03
Not necessarily, but it's 100% supported by the experimental evidence in the very small sample set of "me". One method has broken about 15 reeds. The other has yet to break one. Since learning the new method, an occasional moment of sloppiness and falling into old habits (I learned the breaky way first) has caused reed obliteration (on reeds that survived dozens of non-breaky-method slaps) on multiple occasions.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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