 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-12-14 01:09
Anyone ever find that you can keep sanding and sanding the side that sounds airy, dull, not-as-"ringing", etc., but it never sounds remotely close to the other side of the reed that does sound good? Is there any solution to this problem? Maybe I need to remove material from a different part of the reed?
By the way, I've been using the ATG system for a couple years now, and although it's been extremely useful, I've always seemed to have this type of problem.
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Author: ddavani
Date: 2010-12-14 04:00
The ATG is great and I've been using it too. Though, what I've found is that if you play on an imbalanced reed with a lot of air, you'll get it to adjust to your playing. Lately I've been doing that and it's worked out great for me.
-Dave Davani
http://allclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-14 05:08
(This was meant to respond to Charles's original post, not Dave's response - sorry for the carelessness.)
One thing I've found when I use ATG is that, once the tip is balanced, if I need to work a little farther down to free up one side or the other or both, it's hard to do because the abrasive still passes over the tip, often thinning it too much. If the tip seems balanced and flexible but the sound is still dull or stuffy, I find that a knife or rush work better - I can take material out of the side areas just under the tip without further thinning the tip edge in the process.
I just had the problem earlier today that you described with a reed I was working on, although it doesn't happen very often (any more). There was some area that was just too heavy and was keeping the reed from vibrating easily on the left side. Trouble is, by the time you find the right spot (if you do), you often have taken so much out of the *wrong* places that the reed collapses. You can either clip it back and basically re-profile the whole tip area or give it up as a lost cause and spend your time more productively playing on a less mysterious reed.
My decision was that life is too short to keep chasing a siren of a reed that keeps tempting me but just won't give in. The trash collectors will never even know it's there in the morning. In the next fifteen minutes I successfully balanced 4 other reeds.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-12-14 05:12)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-14 12:09
I use only two points mostly, being careful to NEVER touch the heart. I start with an ovate area about two millimeters from the tip to about six millimeters down from the tip on either side of the reed. If there is no significant improvement in balance (too much disparity) I will take off from an imaginary strip three millimeters wide (from the very edge) along the offending side from the start of the heel cut up to about three quarters of the way up the vamp. This last area can be a good way to make a brittle reed "warm up" by doing both sides this way.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2010-12-14 13:22
I found Karl's description of his experience with ATG to be very useful, largely because it confirms my own experience and my decision to work largely on the shoulders of the reed with a knife or sandpaper.
With ATG, as much as I like it for quick work, I suspect that I softened too many tips along the way, when all I was seeking was a more responsive reed overall. ATG allows you to fine-tune the ears of the reed, but working soley on the shoulders by using the sandpaper-block tool is awkward if not impossible to do well.
Paul's suggestion, on skimming along the edges, is new to me but sounds promising. I'm eager to give it a try.
Thank you, both.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-12-14 13:39
You have to remember that balancing is not always the only answer because it doesn't take the quality of the cane into consideration. Bad cane produces bad reeds. The density of the cane is more or as important as is the thickness of the cane. There are many more variables then just getting one side softer or harder. And I totally agree that there are many reeds that just deserve the "wall test". I have many suggestions for adjusting and caring for reeds on my website if anyone is interested. Remember, you can make most reeds better but you can't make every reed play well. A lot depends on the quality of the cane and your standards. The higher your standards are the more difficult it is to reach because no two reeds are alike and the cane is imperfect to begin with. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-14 14:12
Forestone reeds are always perfectly balanced from side to side and require no further adjustment such as performed by TR's AGT system, ReedWizard, sandpaper or knife. They always play perfectly right "out of the box", require no break-in, conditioning or moistening--and they outlast the average cane reed in terms of months, even years. If your mouthpiece is good, a Forestone reed will play well for you every time with a great sound and crisp response.
No more problems of cane density or imbalance issues to contend with if you use Forestone.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-14 15:25
The standard way of finding whether a reed is balanced is to play while rotating the instrument in your mouth far as possible to the left and right and comparing the resistance. Another way is to hold the reed butt between your right thumb and forefinger and almost parallel to your left thumbnail and press the tip gently against your thumbnail to find the softer and harder areas.
To locate the spot to scrape, I hold the reed by the butt, with the tip facing down and below the bottom edge of a lamp shade. I take a soft (#2) pencil, shade over the dark area and scrape off the graphite with a reed knife.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-12-14 17:24
I find modern reeds to be much more consistent and better-balanced (side-to-side) than they used to be. I would suggest that, if you are frequently fighting "lateral imbalance" in your reeds, the real culprit may be an asymmetric mouthpiece facing. I would try different mouthpieces.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-14 18:33
Iceland, the sound of the Forestone is a little different than that of a cane reed, but I would stress *different* rather than better or worse. For me, some of the reed buzz is subdued with the F4's that I use, but the resulting tone quality in the upper register sounds richer, less thin, than with cane. I could describe it as the tone quality of my Leblanc Concerto with the projection of my Buffet R13. I think too many clarinetists don't take the necessary amount of time to really get used to playing the synthetic reed and therefore do not appreciate what they are capable of. Forestones (and Legeres) do sound different than cane, but I like that difference--especially the sound of the Forestone in the upper register as opposed to that of Legere, which sounds kind of thuddy in articulation and dull in tone quality. I am not certain I understand what you mean by "woody" relative to reed sound--I always thought that was a result of the depth of the mouthpiece baffle or brand of clarinet, not the reed.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-12-14 20:06
I finaly got around to trying the Forestone reeds I ordered a while back,and William is right about the quality. Much nicer, even, than the Legere Signature IMHO. I will probably be ordering some more in the near future.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Stonewall
Date: 2010-12-14 21:27
Sorry to get away from the subject, but where can you purchase Forestone reeds? I've checked all the most popular music sites and can't seem to find them anywhere.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-12-14 21:28
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think Karl's suggestion did the trick; both sides sound much more close to identical than before.
I do have hopes of trying Forestone in the future... in addition to a harder Legere Signature reed than the one I have now.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-12-14 21:31
William
I only had to hear the test clips on the Legere homepage ones to find out which was which and to me the sound was so I could not accept to hear a professional play it in a concert.
Then when I tried Legere myself the sound and feel was just best described to me as "dead". But I would like to give it a try in a marching session outside specially when it's very dry.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-15 14:12
Iceland, please do not dismiss the Forestone reed because you do not like the Legere sound bytes (samples). Forestone reeds have a much more cane-like quality, especially evident in the upper register notes--that range (for me) above G5 and on up. To my ear, the Legere reeds goes "dead" and pitch is hard to maintain. Forestones retain their resilience and fullness of sound and pitch is easier to control--that is, if you embouchure is in shape. No reed, cane or synthetic, will sound good with a weak, out of shape set of chops. The better you play, the more evident the sound advantage of the Forestone reed--simple as that.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-15 14:28
William wrote:
> ... Forestones retain their resilience and fullness of
> sound and pitch is easier to control--that is, if you
> embouchure is in shape. No reed, cane or synthetic, will sound
> good with a weak, out of shape set of chops. The better you
> play, the more evident the sound advantage of the Forestone
> reed--simple as that.
Well, it isn't "simple as that." I try to stay out of these synthetic vs. cane discussions because there's no real point in them - you try the synthetics and either like them or go back to cane. Each to his own taste. But to suggest that somehow not hearing the advantage of Forestones over Legeres - and by extension, over cane as well - is an indication of lack of skill or embouchure condition is over the top. There are many skilled and in-shape players who prefer cane and even some who prefer Legeres.
Karl
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-15 18:40
"There are many skilled and in-shape players who prefer cane and even some who prefer Legeres."
Yes, I agree. However, the point I was trying to make was that one should give the new reed--or any piece of equipement--adequate quality time to get used to it, and that often requires an "in shape" embouchure and more playing time than just a "quick blow" at a music store counter. After a fair trial period, one can then make a more educated and informed decision. Ex--I have been playing Forestones since May of 2009 in all of my regular playing venues and can say that I like them over Legere or cane. They do take some "getting used too" but given that chance, I think a lot more good clarinetists would consider making a permanent switch.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-15 18:54
William wrote:
> "There are many skilled and in-shape players who prefer cane
> and even some who prefer Legeres."
>
> Yes, I agree. However, the point I was trying to make was that
> one should give the new reed--or any piece of
> equipement--adequate quality time to get used to it, and that
> often requires an "in shape" embouchure and more playing time
> than just a "quick blow" at a music store counter.
It sounds from this response as though maybe your wording is the problem and that you are (I hope) only saying that the player needs to take the time to acclimate him/herself to the new equipment (whatever it is - it wouldn't only apply to reeds). What you actually wrote was,
"Forestones retain their resilience and fullness of sound and pitch is easier to control--that is, if you embouchure is in shape. No reed, cane or synthetic, will sound good with a weak, out of shape set of chops. The better you play, the more evident the sound advantage of the Forestone reed--simple as that."
This statement, to which I object, clearly implies, whether you meant it to or not, that somehow the skill level ("the better you play") and the overall state of one's playing condition ("weak, out of shape set of chops") are somehow predictors or determinants of appreciation of Forestone reeds, which, I hope you agree, is not nearly the same as saying that you have to get used to the change before you can judge it fairly.
Karl
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-16 14:57
My words speak for themselves--the better you play, the more accurately you can appreciate what any piece of clarinet equipement does in performance. That goes for brands of clarinet, barrels & mouthpieces (some very expensive and perhaps, over-rated), ligatures, reeds, etc. etc. etc. It's just common sense and I don't understand anyone having a problem with that. With regards to the Forestone reed issue, I'm saying that perhaps two problems exist: 1) the reeds are not given enough audition time (weeks are suggested) nor is the audition venue condusive to proper evaluation (retail counter, booth at Mid-West, home and not ensemble); or 2) the player is expecting the equipement (reed) to miraculously make him/her sound "all of a sudden" better without the benefit of focused practice and learning. A weak player will still sound weak, even on the best of equipement--agree?? So, to fully appreciate how well the new Forestone reeds play, you must give yourself a chance to adapt to the new "feel" and you must be "good enough" to realize the reeds potential. I say, give Forestone a chance to prove itself and you may decide that you like what you discover--great sound throughout the entire range, great articualtion and flexability of tone color, and (most important to me) NO MORE CANE HASSELS (reed searchs and unusalbe rejects, reeds drying out, constant reed conditioning, re-moistening and reed death on the gig--to name just a few)
BTW, I'm not a world-class viruoso but only a good semi-pro, mostly amatuer woodwind player (clarinets, saxes & flute). But I'm "good enough" to make an informed decision about equipement performance and so are most of you. Give Forestones a resonable testing and then, decide for yourselves like I have. For me, I'll never go back to cane on any of my clarinets or saxes as long as Forestone is available. If it comes to "that", it may be a toss-up between my old V12s or Legere (none of which I like)--or maybe a switch to trombone.....LOL Peace.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-16 15:17
William, I have no argument with anything in this post. It was specifically the statement that, "The better you play, the more evident the sound advantage of the Forestone reed--simple as that." It does seem hard not to agree that "the better you play, the more accurately you can appreciate what any piece of clarinet equipement does in performance." And on that note I'm happy to drop the argument as having been based on an initial misunderstanding. Your points in this post are well taken. Thanks for the clarification.
Karl
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