 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-08-29 01:04
I'm auditioning some clarinets right now. A few I own and my good 'ol mama sent to me that she's held on to when I left her house. And a few that I've had out on trial.
For this post, until decisions are made, clarinet makes/models will remain secret to all but me as I simply want to keep the responses unbiased by make/model.
Tuning
Clarinet 1 - Tuning is pretty much spot on throughout the registers. EXCELLENT tuning.
Clarinet 2 - Tuning is not bad. But there are a few spots that concern me. Mainly, Clarion D through F are flat (about 15 cents). And clarion Bb through the altissimo are sharp. About twenty-five cents.
Tone
Clarinet 1 - Tone is simply not as good. Not bad, but not even close to Clarinet 2.
Clarinet 2 - Tone is Excellent.
Fit and Finish (keywork, looks, comfortability, etc.)
Clarinet 1 - Workable and durable.
Clarinet 2 - Much better. More comfortable, better made.
I've been racking my brains and trying all sorts of stuff to fix Clarinet 2's tuning, but I can't seem to change those problematic notes. And with those notes, I can't play in my ensembles.
My ideas - Keep clarinet 2, and send it off somewhere to get tuned and voiced for however much it might cost.
Keep clarinet 1, return clarinet 2, and just mentally DEAL with the knowledge that there is another clarinet out there that sounds better.
Any ideas? I would love to keep clarinet 2, but I'm wondering if a good tech can tune/voice it. It's out on trial right now, but I don't want to keep it and then find out I can't have it adjusted to much better playing tolerances. I know I can keep clarinet 1, but after trying clarinet 2, I now realize that it is lacking in tone.
Alexi
PS - Please don't make suggestions on other clarinets or certain makes/brands. My current situation makes these two clarinets my best options. I don't want to explain it all, but between Clarinet 1 and Clarinet 2, that's the choices.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2010-08-29 01:07)
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Author: andrewsong
Date: 2010-08-29 01:42
I suggest clarinet 2. If you play long tones with a tuner continuously, you should be able to subconsciously adjust to match pitch even without a tuner eventually. Plus, it will have great tone and finish The tuning may bother you at first, but tone is essential so I think that is most important.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-08-29 01:53
(snickers. PS: clarinet 2 and clarinet 1 are both instruments designed by people that have served as chief clarinet designers for major firm X. Be rest assured that both of these horns have had major players playing them and would swear by them! This is why poor Alexi is to torn.)
Post Edited (2010-08-29 01:57)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-08-29 02:12
You don't say how Clarinet 2's chalumeau G through B-flat (the twelfth below clarion D-F) tune. Probably any competent tech can bring the 4 clarion notes up if the lower G-Bb can stand coming up as well. The sharp upper clarion notes are not unusual even on excellent clarinets and can be voiced downward by the player, and the sharp altissimo may be the instrument, your chosen mouthpiece/reed setup, your way of voicing the notes or any combination of those. Have you had someone else - someone who plays at least as well as you do - try Clarinet 2? It's possible that whatever you've been playing on until now has the opposite tendencies (especially from Bb6 upward) and you've developed compensations that you're still applying unconsciously when you play this different instrument. Of course, bringing D5-F5 up may also bring C#6 and D6 up a little.
My own opinion, not having heard or played either of these clarinets myself and not knowing anything about your playing habits or other equipment, is that I would take the keywork and tone quality and learn to play D5-F5 higher by learning to voice them differently. If I could, ideally I'd also do some more experimenting with reeds and, if possible, mouthpieces before I decided the clarinet is causing the sharp altissimo. An unresponsive reed can drive my altissimo pitches up a great deal (I've never checked on a tuner, but I might be able to get a 25 cent difference just from the reed). Some mouthpieces can cause the same effect even with softer reeds.
My 2-cents only. You should choose the instrument that lets you play most comfortably.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-08-29 02:41
Quote:
Have you had someone else - someone who plays at least as well as you do - try Clarinet 2? ....If I could, ideally I'd also do some more experimenting with reeds and, if possible, mouthpieces ...My 2-cents only. You should choose the instrument that lets you play most comfortably. Excellent points. I just recently started taking lessons, and my instructor (a buffet artist, so he KNOWS how to play!) played them side by side and immediately chose Clarinet 2. And when he played them, that's when I really heard the difference in sound and tone.
I have tried my collection of mouthpieces and different reeds, and the result is the same in both cases. I've been able to compensate and voice the D - F up to in tune, however have a REALLY tough time with the altissimo and Bb - C.
Alexi
PS - Sigh. Choices, choices, choices. I know I've been vague, but I just want to make a good decision. And regret a choice I've made like some of my past regrets (Selling a great set of Leblanc Opus clarinets about four years ago for 2000 + S&H. WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?!?!)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-08-29 02:58
Well, when your teacher played them, were the altissimo notes sharp? I assume he used his own mouthpiece and reed.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-08-29 03:02
kdk wrote:
> Well, when your teacher played them, were the altissimo notes
> sharp? I assume he used his own mouthpiece and reed.
>
> Karl
Not to my ears. But it wasn't a full out, slow scale, note by note with a tuner test. He played a chromatic scale at a "walking" pace to double high C, some arpeggios, and tested the dynamic range from ppp to fff. I guess what I focused on was the tone.
Alexi
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-08-29 03:25
Ask your teacher what he thinks of the altissimo intonation (maybe you can get him to play to a tuner just to ease your mind). Although, truthfully, I think if he were 25 cents sharp you'd have heard it. Sometimes, too, tuners lie, or, rather, react to other parts of the sound than what you or others actually hear when you play.
Karl
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-08-29 04:53
#2 does sound like the correct option. Maybe a different barrel would be advisable too? I'm sure there's something you can do for it. Intonation is important, but so are tone and how it actually feels under your fingers. If you don't feel good about playing it, you won't play it well. I've noticed the altissimo on my clarinets is pretty sharp also, and have been half-holing the notes, rather than lifting my index finger completely off. It's helped the intonation, and has made the notes easier to speak as well. Little things like that can always help. You'll learn the clarinet, just like you would a new car. It takes some time to get used to it's tendencies, which are probably different from your own. Your teacher's clarinet may have similar tendencies, so he may be used to it.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-08-29 07:43
First of all, despite all of the opinions, it is you that will have to decide what is best for YOU and not what others desire.
One option you may wish to consider may be this:
Instead of dumping clarinet number 1 that is much better in tune and easier to play than clarinet number 2 , you could possibly get some more mouthpiece and barrel combinations ( after consulting some mouthpiece and barrel manufacturers as to your desires) to get your tone to sound like or close to clarinet number 2.
That way you could have the best of both worlds...
Justme
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-08-29 08:48
Does half holing the LH1 on clarinet 2 bring the sharp notes down at the very top of the range (as you would a bass clarinet)?
Chris
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-08-29 14:28
Alexi -
As Keith Stein says, "A mouthpiece [or clarinet] which plays out of tune is worthless, no matter how well it responds [or sounds]."
http://books.google.com/books?id=EdvJ3JleBy4C&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=%22out+of+tune+is+worthless%22&source=bl&ots=r0ytwy5nj-&sig=AQ9m5WI8WcB_qVt2RZwLSfPL9oI&hl=en&ei=X2h6TKewNMWqlAe81aSTCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22out%20of%20tune%20is%20worthless%22&f=false
If #1 has the stock barrel, a new handmade barrel (and perhaps a Backun bell) will certainly help and is the place to start. That's certainly less expensive than bore adjustments to #2, with no guarantee that they will do what's needed.
Have someone whose ears you trust stand across the room and listen to you playing #1 and #2. Maybe there's not as much difference in the sound as you think.
If you'll use the clarinet in the band, you actually want a non-distinctive sound so that you blend into the section.
Finally, despite your expressed limits, I don't think you should limit yourself to these two instruments, neither of which does what you want. Go to a large store with many clarinets to try, pick out a great one and trade your two for it. If you want to be a professional player, you need a clarinet where everything is right. And every player needs an instrument that is a pleasure to play. You only pay for something once, but get that pleasure every time you play it, for the rest of your life.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-08-29 14:47
In my years of experience as a teacher and player my suggestion is to never buy a clarinet that you can't play in tune with being able to make comfortable adjustments. Don't buy an out of tune clarinet, you will live to regret it, period. Even the best techs are limited in what they can do. Believe me, I've seen and heard promises that simply could not be met. If you must choose one of the two I suggest the one that tunes well because with a different barrel, even bell and or mouthpiece you will be able to achieve a better tone. You may never be able to play the other one in tune. My suggestion though is not to choose either but try some others. I would send them both back and try out as many of the brand and model whose tone you like best and see if you can find one that also plays much better in tune. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-08-29 15:14
Ok. Did some more testing out. I've been trying a few different barrels with the clarinets, and while none have really helped the tuning that much of Clarinet 2, clarinet 1's tone is a little better with one of them.
I've tried half-holing the altissimo notes, and it didn't help enough.
I checked out the lower chalemeau, and the 12ths are pretty good with the exception of low B/clarion F#. B is about five cents sharp, F# is 10 cents flat. Hmmmmmm.....But I've emailed the the company of clarinet 2, and am talking on whether these small issues are something that is correctable with some fine-tuning.
Alexi
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Author: William
Date: 2010-08-29 15:15
Pick the one that play's best--even register with easiest response & acceptalbe intonation (can be played easily in tune). Sound--quality & flexability--can be worked on later.
However, the "best" scenerio would be to pick a clarinet that "does it all" and that may require supressing the "gottahaveitnow" syndrome that many of us suffer from. Best advice, be patient--don't "rush to judgement"--and select intelligently rather than impulsively. Remember that when it comes time for your CSO audition, you will want to sound good, play impeccably in tune and with musical expression. The Chicago Winter is something that you have to accept--not a clarinet that plays only "ok".
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-08-29 15:38
Yeah, why not get a couple more examples of Clarinet #2, and see if they are any better? Is there a reason why you are limited to just these two clarinets?
When my husband was choosing a mouthpiece a few years back, the mouthpiece maker (Greg Smith) first sent us three DIFFERENT styles of mouthpieces to try. We chose one style from that selection. He then sent us THREE of the style that we chose, so we could pick the one we liked best.
Even though these were technically identical mouthpieces, one of these three was clearly, obviously, and immediately better suited for my husband than the other two.
I have every reason to believe you would have a similar experience if you were able to compare three (or more) of the apparently identical clarinet model side by side.
Susan
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-08-29 15:58
On its own merits, Alexi, I don't think either clarinet will be acceptable to you in the long run. Now that you've heard the tone quality and seen the fit and finish of No2, if you are like me, you'll never be satisfied with No1. On the other hand, No2 has serious intonation problems. A good repair tech might be able to resolve those problems (I think it may have been Hans Moennig who said he could fix any intonation problem as long as it wasn't D4, or maybe E4) but there is no guarantee and the attempt might be costly.
I infer from my reading of your first post that you probably own No1 and are auditioning No2. (You mention the option of sending No2 back so I assume you don't own it and also that it is not an Army-provided horn.)
If that's the case, I think I would have to choose No1 -- but I would view it as a short-term acceptance of the "lesser of two weevils" (as Dr. Maturin would say). And if No1 is what I think it is, IMO, putting a handmade barrel and a Bakun bell on it would be throwing good money after bad in an attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
If No2 is a new instrument being purchased from a dealer, you might consider sending it back to the seller with an indication of its problems and an inquiry as to whether the seller might be able to fix them or willing to send you (a few) other clarinets of the same model to try so that you can see whether the intonation problems are generic to the model or specific to the instrument you have. It would probably be worth the shipping costs. But in the end, I would not purchase No2 as is. And if I'm wrong and you don't own No1, I wouldn't purchase it either.
As Ken says, in the long run, you want a clarinet where everything is right and the instrument is a pleasure to play.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-08-29 19:07
I should say, in case you feel as though you're getting conflicting advice, that I completely agree with those who have said that if clarinet 2 is genuinely out of tune with itself, you should stay clear of it. My suggestions were only aimed at being sure it was the instrument and not some other part of the system that was causing the pitch problem in the upper clarion and altissimo registers. I have personal experience in having been burned by buying an instrument because I fell in love with its sound, response and keywork and ignored the fact that the various registers were noticeably out of tune with each other. I was able to partially solve the problem with a different mouthpiece, but the clarinet is still not playable in any ensemble setting (which also keeps me in good conscience from selling it). So if you and your teacher determine that the instrument is the main or even a significant source of the intonation problem, it isn't the one you should choose.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-08-29 21:41
David, that's not fair, they're all tuned at the factory. That's why clarinets are all so perfect . ESP
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-08-29 21:58
... Ed, now that you mentioned it, I must say that a few R-13s out of the box that I tried actually didn't play as well as a B-stock floor model... as in mechanically. I will leave the argument about tuning to others.
I think I can appreciate why a pro cannot be happy with something that came out of the box and must have it worked out by a master tech by the way...
Post Edited (2010-08-29 22:00)
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-08-30 05:04
Don't think that if you have a rubber clarinet that you can't improve the sound to your liking by using something made with a different material on it.
Leslie Craven who is the principal clarinettist of the Orchestra of Welsh National Opera and is widely regarded as one of Britain’s most accomplished and respected clarinettists in every musical genres has a pair of lyrique ebonite clarinets which he uses and gave rave reviews about.
The only thing about them is that he thought they could have a better sound in the lower register. He got some backun bells (wooden) and is using them on the aforementioned instruments and claims that they made a good improvement in the sound of the lower registers.
Justme
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-08-30 13:37
Have you tried swapping the mouthpieces on these clarinets? That could give you an idea of whether trying other mouthpieces might bring that Clarinet No. 2 into tune with intself.
I ask because some of my instruments are vintage, antique or unusual in some way, and mouthpieces that sound good on some instruments make other instruments sound sound so bad that I'd be tempted to write those clarinets off as useless, if I couldn't try other mouthpieces on them. The difference isn't just in tone quality. Intonation can suffer grossly -- and on two "upgrade" student clarinets, a 1957 grenadilla Conn Director (my first clarinet) and a plastic Yamaha from the 1980s, the mouthpieces that came with the clarinets are among the worst. That Yamaha has good tone and will play pretty close to in tune with a Hite Premiere, but with the original mouthpiece, it's got equally good tone quality but extremely wide twelfths, with some of the throat tones sharp while others are so flat I can't lip them up to anything that'd be acceptable even in a children's band.
Also, modern mouthpieces are generally longer in proportion to the barrels than antique and early 20th century mouthpieces. Putting a standard-type modern mouthpiece with an old clarinet, or an old mouthpiece with a new clarinet, often messes up the intonation.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-08-30 23:45
Personally I would not get an instrument (or mouthpiece, barrel, etc) that is out of tune and hope that I could get it to work out.
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-08-31 11:26
It's a curiously stark choice here, and makes me wonder what is so particular or special about these two instruments. But leaving that aside:
Put crudely, tone is an issue which goes to our sense of self identity. You might refer to it as self actualisation. It assumes a high importance in the mind of the player. Tuning is an issue to do with compatibility with others, be they an audience or fellow players. If you wish to achieve acceptance by others, always favour good tuning. If you wish to "express yourself" then favour tone but note the obvious potential consequences.
Put another way, per Herzberg, tone is a motivator whereas tuning is a hygiene factor.
Hope these observations help you to make up your mind, or to jettison both choices.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-08-31 16:48
I'd look at the mouthpiece as a possible source of intonation problems on clarinet 2. One of my horns (A Conn Henkin) has good intonation and is a delight to play, but with modern (i.e. long) mouthpieces it plays consistently a few cents flat. A swap to an older unbranded hard rubber mouthpiece from my junk box sharpened it up just enough to be pretty near ideal. I tried playing with shorter barrels, but that caused other problems.
Tony F.
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2010-08-31 19:01
If those are your ONLY two choices, I would strongly go with #1. After a brief "honeymoon" period with any instrument/mouthpiece/barrel, one usually ends up sounding like ones self, and you can always alter your sound with aftermarket barrels, mouthpieces, reeds, etc. ad nauseum.
For a while I played a Prestige that was a very very nice sounding instrument that was not in tune (my own fault - I fell in love with the sound). I struggled so hard to play in tune that it took away from concentrating on sound and phrasing anyway. It was exhausting, both physically and mentally. I now own two different instruments, both play very well in tune, AND sound great, too.
Bottom line: if you can't play in tune, nobody will care how beautiful your sound is, IMO.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-09-01 00:39
Ok. I chose clarinet #1, with the caveat that I will spend a little time auditioning some barrels and bells to help manipulate it.
As per the secret, the reason I had certain circumstances was because I was choosing between my current Lyrique (clarinet #1) and a Leblanc Bliss composite model (clarinet #2). And the circumstances were that I was looking for a budget buy, which means I found a good price on a slightly used bliss and I already own the lyrique. I also wanted to stick with a non-wood clarinet since I play outdoors most of the time, and my career (military) has me moving every few years to who KNOWS what climate. That right there limits the number of available clarinets, and to find one of them in slightly used, heavily discounted condition is even rarer.
After working with the bliss, I did manage to fix most tuning issues with the exception of the Clarinet higher B through the altissimo being sharp, and clarinet F# being VERY flat (fork fingering was spot on). I tried many different barrels and bells. I DO think that these issues are fixable by a good tech. I'm SURE that Mr. Backun could fix these, but based on my budget, I decided it best to keep what I have instead of putting more money into the bliss.
It's a great clarinet, and I'll definitely be checking out those Leblanc/Backun clarinets. The keywork is PHENOMINAL. A few days of playing on it and I was hooked. Just very EASY to play. VERY easy.
Also, I did take the bliss composite bell and put it on the lyrique and there was a positive change. I did feel what others have felt about it being "easier" to transition between registers. And articulation of the long clarion notes was VERY easy. Also changed the tone a bit.
So when all's said and done, I'm going to keep the lyrique, and probably try out some backun bells to find one that helps my clarinet the best, and probably find a barrel to fit to it (I'm thinking I'd like to try Allan Segal's barrels). Then I'll have a great barrel and bell that will help transform this horn, and I'll also have the original synthetic barrel and bell for when conditions are less than great.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2010-09-01 00:40)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-01 01:46
Now for the other crucial question...
Who's gonna be the lucky student that will get that Bliss? Hehe.
On a more serious note. Even for me, being utter unqualified, I have to agree that something like this is really not terribly acceptable if an individual is playing for a band. One needs to blend and to project with his/her instrument in such a setting.
This is by no mean to denounce any clarinet maker. Most off the shelf horns aren't 100% anyways, which is something that I have keenly felt. I think the lesson here is that a horn really has to be evaluated and tweaked professionally given how much is at stake for the professional players.
(shamefully admits that I would be appeased just by the thing being mechanically ok and still have suction)
Post Edited (2010-09-01 02:04)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-09-01 03:26
I agree with the tweaking. I posted a thread about it years ago. And one of the reasons the Lyrique has been spoken about so well on this board is because EACH custom lyryque gets tweaked and tuned before you get it. So its already been heavily worked on before you play it "off the shelf". However most other clarinets have not had the level of detail worked on as this one. So often, we compare an "off the shelf" lyrique with an "off the shelf" [whatever model] Not [I]quite[/I] apples to apples comparison. But you can give that attention when youre a small business such as Tom's (in comparison to a business with multiple models selling thousands a year) And it's the personalized attention to each clarinet by a master technician that its makes the lyrique a bargain.
So its tough to compare an off the shelf Leblanc whatever against what is essentially a custom tuned and voiced lyrique. But morrie doesn't have the manpower for the production of all his clarinets to attend to each one being sold.
Alexi
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-09-01 13:28
You did the right thing, Alexi.
When time and finances allow, if you get a chance to visit West Point, stop in and vist with John Parrette, and ask to try a few of his Symphonies. you will be truly amazed at how good they can be for the cash required.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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