 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: crac1967
Date: 2010-08-12 11:53
Hi,
I've just bought a used Leblanc paperclip contra alto. Unfortunately it has arrived with a neck for a contra bass. As both instruments have the same bore it fits, but is too long to get the instrument in pitch, and probably causes all sorts of other incidental problems.
I have the option to send it back to the seller, but I've had it sent to the UK from the US, so I've already paid a chunk of cash in import duty which I'm not going to get back. The instrument in general is in good condition apart from the incorrect neck.
My question is this: can I just get a couple of inches cut off the end of the neck to make it the correct length for a contra alto? Has anyone done this before? Are there problems I haven't considered? Obviously this is a fairly horrible thing to have to do, but unless anyone has a better suggestion, or a spare contra alto neck they'd like to sell, I'm not sure what else to do.
If I decide to go this route, could someone on the list with a Leblanc paperclip contra alto please measure their neck and tell me how long the tenon that mates with the main body of the instrument should be?
Thanks for your help.
Crac
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-12 12:24
You shouldn't have any problem once the crook has been shortened to the correct length - should be a fairly straightforward thing to do by a skilled repairer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-08-12 14:21
Contrabasses and contra-altos -- at least the ones I have played -- have different bores. The mouthpieces are often the same on the outside, but the CB has a larger tenon and won't fit into a CA neck socket. I think that the bores are different sizes throughout. Thus, I think you have a CA neck that's simply too long, particularly if a CA mouthpiece fits it.
The Leblanc contra bodies are nickel-plated. The basic tube is probably steel. If you saw off the end of the neck, you should renew the nickel plating at the cut area to avoid rust.
Ken Shaw
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Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2010-08-12 16:29
I know at USF we have a metal contra alto and contra bass and we use the same mouthpiece for both. I won't be at school for another week so it is impossible for me to check out the neck pieces right now. These are fairly old instruments though and something could have changed from these models and the one you have now or the one Ken tried. If I remember correctly the serial number on the contrabass we have is in the mid 100's. Anyone know what the ever got up to?
As well, You could try the Leblanc Forum. Scott over there is always helpful and he might be able to dig one up in the factory.
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2010-08-12 16:36
Hello,
All of the Leblanc Contra Clarinets that I have seen have Brass tubing. I have never heard of one with steel tubing. The tubing can be cut with a hacksaw but would be quite a mess after and sanding, filing etc will likely leave a less than perfect fit and finish. Try to find a pace with Wire EDM or Waterjet equipment and the cut should be pristine. The other advantage is the residue piece will be so cleanly cut that it could be resoldered if necessary.
Best of luck,
Morrie
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-12 18:45
No maker would ever consider making any instrument in steel due to the problems with rust. Stainless steel has been used, but on the whole, a non-ferrous material is used such as copper, bronze, brass, nickel silver, solid silver and various gold alloys as they are both easy to work with and won't have any problems with rusting.
Both Leblanc contra-altos and contrabasses have the same bore and are made from either brass or nickel silver, so provided the contrabass crook can be shortened sufficiently, there shouldn't be any tuning or intonation problems. Chances are if the cut-n-shut is done well, there won't be any need for replating as the plating (be it silver or nickel) won't be damaged by soft soldering the pieces back together once they're the correct lengths.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-08-14 08:38)
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Author: LCL
Date: 2010-08-12 18:46
Maybe I'll get in trouble over this, but I would let Morrie do the alteration for you. He's done and is currently doing some wonderful things with my horns! And I have a Leblanc paperclip contrabass that I would entrust to him anytime. In fact, that 1963 vintage horn has a removable low C section that on the newer contras is soldered at that junction. One day, I may ask him to do that for me!
Best regards,
LCL
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-08-12 20:29
Morrie and Chris -
Thanks for the correction on the metal. Steel was just a guess.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2010-08-14 07:59
I have both the contra bass and contra alto Leblanc paperclips. The necks are identical except that the insertion shank on the contrabass is longer by about two inches eyeballing it. The EEb neck will play just fine in the BBb instrument but not the other way around. Each instrument has a receiver that will limit how far the neck can be inserted - the length of the receiver is plain to tell since it is somewhat wider than the rest of the tubing.
I really don't see any problem with cutting down the longer neck, provided it's kept round. Plating should not be a problem - both my necks have unplated shanks. I believe that these contras are made of nickel silver (like certain french horns) which is nickel-plated. There is no yellow brass visible anywhere. The older contras have a satin silver plating.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-08-14 08:44
If it's only the crook tenon that needs to be shortened, then that's an easy job - provided the end has been cut squarely.
Put the crook in as far as it goes, then measure the amount of tenon still showing and keep a note of this measurement. Take the crook out and mark off this measurement from the end of the tenon around the circumference of the crook tenon and cut it down by this amount (always cut on the waste side of the line!). Then true it up and clean up the cut end so there aren't any burrs left.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: crac1967
Date: 2010-08-17 12:37
Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I was a bit worried that I'd cause a riot by suggesting taking a hacksaw to an instrument, but I'm relieved not to have.
The crook on mine seems to be plated brass, but the plating has either worn off or was never there on the bit that inserts into the joint, so I'm not too worried about replating.
The serial number on the main body of the instrument and the bell is something like 315 (it's at home at the moment so I can't check) and the one on the crook is somthing like 380. If I've got the model number correct (350?) then that makes the main bit of the instrument from the first year of production, 1964! I've just realised something when checking the serial numbers on the internet - the crook can't be from a paperclip contrabass, as that started numbering at 1000. Perhaps it's from a straight contrabass? Or just something else entirely?
Confused now ... Any ideas?
Cheers,
Crac
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2010-08-17 13:05
Crac -
On a long shot, I have the parts manager at the woodwind plant searching for a replacement neck for the 350 CA. Its a long shot since we haven't made these in a while but we'll take a look.
Unless you've done some work with brass tubing already (the bodies are nickel plated brass), I agree with the recommendation that Morrie or another highly skilled tech do the work for you. I can guarantee the acoustic and fit/finish results will be more satifactory than a hacksaw.
Best - Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2010-08-17 13:05
Crac -
On a long shot, I have the parts manager at the woodwind plant searching for a replacement neck for the 350 CA. Its a long shot since we haven't made these in a while but we'll take a look.
Unless you've done some work with brass tubing already (the bodies are nickel plated brass), I agree with the recommendation that Morrie or another highly skilled tech do the work for you. I can guarantee the acoustic and fit/finish results will be more satifactory than a hacksaw.
Best - Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: crac1967
Date: 2010-08-17 13:21
Hi Scott,
Thanks for doing that - very helpful. I'd rather not have to cut bits off a perfectly good neck if I don't have to, even it's a neck I don't have the rest of the instrument for (yet ...).
Don't worry, the hacksaw thing was a figure of speech. I'll get a proper tech to do the work if and when I have to!
Cheers,
Crac
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Author: scott kurtzweil
Date: 2010-08-18 13:19
Crac -
We have looked in our remaining stock for a fitting neck and unfortunately were not able to find what you need.
Best - Scott
Scott Kurtzweil
Kurtzweil Musical LLC
www.kurtzweilmusical.com
269-340-9013
scott@kurtzweilmusical.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-08-18 13:50
Crac, I was quite serious about the hacksaw -- this is an easy 5-minute job you can do yourself. Or if you don't care for hacksaws you can go to the hardware/tool store and buy a tubing cutter for fifteen bucks, then after you cut off the offending extra neck, clean up the tubing end with a file and sandpaper or a reamer. You don't have to go running to a tech for every little thing.
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Author: crac1967
Date: 2010-08-21 15:01
Hi Scott,
Very kind of you to look - thanks for your help.
I've had a chance to check the serial number now, and it's nothing like the one I remembered - and the numbers don't seem to fit with the published serial number lists I've found. The body and bell are serial number 183, which doesn't match the published range for the 350 model, and the crook is serial number 878, which doesn't match the published range for the 340 model.
If you or any one else has an idea what these numbers signify that would be helpful - I can't work it out.
Cheers,
Crac
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2010-08-27 23:08
My recollection is that the serial number lists start in 1964, because the records prior to that date were lost. The instruments themselves were in production for a number of years before that. I recall seeing a magazine cover from 1955 that prominently featured four model 340 paperclips.
There were a lot more 340's than 350's. My 340 with serial number 19XX dates from 1970, while my 350 with serial 52X dates from 1973. My guess is that both your instrument, and the mismatched crook date from near 1960 plus or minus a couple of years.
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