 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-10 00:20
There not to only ones in trouble. I'll keep you posted about Baltimore once things are finalized. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2010-03-10 01:20
What do you expect in a city whose population has fallen 25% in the last 50 years, 20% of the families are living under the poverty level and a ticket for decent seat is $70. Today the only people who are seeing their wages rise are bankers, corporate executives and politicians. For most of us our income is falling along with our net worth.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-03-10 01:32
There have been frequent postings lately about major orchestras in trouble--Cleveland, Philadelphia, etc. There is one possible way to cut back, but I never hear it discussed. Perhaps I'm being naive, and I'd be interested to read comments from Ed and others who perform in major orchestras.
Every orchestra has a music director (although the actual title may vary). Along with this number-one person, there are usually one or more associate and/or assistant conductors. It has been my observation (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the music director generally conducts about half (perhaps a few more or a few less) of the regular subscription concerts. Guest conductors usually do most of the remaining concerts. From what I've observed by looking at the web sites of several major orchestras, the associate or assistant conductors don't usually conduct many subscription concerts. They seem to mainly do holiday, pops, childrens, and outdoor summer concerts. In some cases, I'm guessing that they fill in at the last minute if the scheduled conductor is ill.
Why is it that the associate or assistant conductors don't conduct more subscription concerts? These people are on the conducting staff, paid employees of the orchestra. I assume they are completely qualified to conduct an orchestra and have the respect of the musicians. I get the impression (again, perhaps wrongly) that many orchestras keep these people hidden in the shadows. I suppose a major orchestra could really cut expenses if it had the music director and associate/assistant conductor(s) conduct the majority of the subscription concerts, and used guest conductors for only a few concerts every season.
Is there a logical reason why associate and assistant conductors often conduct so few subscription concerts?
Post Edited (2010-03-10 01:34)
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2010-03-10 03:51
I think someone with alot more than experience than I would speak to the use of funds in these powerhouse orchestras. To most, their minimum funds seem incredibly high, and their use of funds seems lavish at best. I would wager this not true, but I would bet this is a common feeling. Maybe Ed, or someone with similar experience could chime in.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: wolfedp
Date: 2010-03-10 05:21
The economy has clearly had a huge impact on the orchestra scene but how much of the attendence drops are due to diminishing interest in classical music? With the increasing numbers in conservatories it seems like there is actually growing interest among younger people but unfortunately those are not the people that can afford tickets. So, is this something that will fix itself in a few years when this age group is older and has the means to attend concerts regularly? Or, is the classical orchestra on its last breath?
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2010-03-10 13:00
Salary freezes? Musicians should be paid what they are worth in a free market economy not proped up but endowments. These musicians should take big pay cuts, orchestras should hire orchestra executives and conductors who will work for less.
I love classical music and the clarinet. It will always be a core part of my soul but the music industry has artificially grown out of control. It is unsustainable and will eventually need to be corrected. Blair tindall did a great job of illustrating this problem in her book "Mozart in the Jungle".
(typed out via iPhone. Errors of all sort are inevitable)
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Author: CPW
Date: 2010-03-10 13:52
1. Leadership up front:
Music directors have great pull on audiences. (Honeck in Pittsburgh, Alsop in Baltimore, and of course the sine qua non Dudamel in LA).
Was Eschenbach not a magnet? I read that some orchestra members had objections to the way he was chosen, and about his tenure with them.
Now the spot is vacant.
2. Mega Venues cost Mega Bucks
I never really understood the "need" for the Kimmel Center. The Academy of Music was iconic and beloved. Why fix something that aint broke.....and costs a lot.
3. Feduciary
Another money black hole seems to be how the endowments of some orchestras are managed. (I am NOT singling out any particular orchestra...so call off the lawyers)
They seem to fluctuate as much, if not more, as the Dow. You would think that they would be more invested in lower risk items.
4. Esprit
No longer listing $500 dollar donors in the playbill? That is just stupid.
Their website has not listed "events featuring members of the orchestra" (under the musicians heading) for months, yet I know of at least one member who gave a master recital, concertized etc. outside of the orchestra...and even had a streaming video concert playing a concerto, but was not listed.
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-10 14:30
Nothing very unique or special about the Philly Orchestra these days. They sound very generic, like any other orchestra. If they go under, it wouldnt be a great loss.
Perhaps if they sounded special, like they used to, people might once again be interested in attending their concerts.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-03-10 15:52
CPW wrote:
> 1. Leadership up front:
> Was Eschenbach not a magnet? I read that some orchestra
> members had objections to the way he was chosen, and about his
> tenure with them.
> Now the spot is vacant.
>
Many of the players in the orchestra found his conducting unclear and his readings poorly structured. This was picked up and amplified by the Philadelphia newspaper critics (one in particular). The orchestra management and musicians desperately wanted Simon Rattle to be the next music director. When that didn't work out, they seem not to have had any strong alternatives in mind, thus the intense attention to guest-conductors, particularly young, energetic ones (however unproven), as prospects. It's a little hard to understand why they invented a title for Dutoit that is deliberately short of Music Director. Management likes him, the musicians seem to like him, audiences like him (even if they don't fall head-over-heels in love). But his age seems to have made a commitment to him uncomfortable, although by the time a music director is actually named and is able to take over the reins, Dutoit probably will have been the defacto leader for as long as Sawallisch and longer than Eschenbach.
> 2. Mega Venues cost Mega Bucks
> I never really understood the "need" for the Kimmel Center.
> The Academy of Music was iconic and beloved. Why fix something
> that aint broke.....and costs a lot.
>
The Academy of Music was a great hall with crystal clear, honest (if dry) acoustics that allowed an orchestra to hear itself and be heard cleanly and resonantly anywhere on the stage or in the hall. It somehow changed when Muti became the music director (apparently neither Stokowski nor Ormandy knew what a good hall really sounded like). Suddenly, it was lifeless, unreverberant, unflattering, a venue where the orchestra could never reach its potential in sonic beauty. I always thought this really boiled down to a lack of echo, which Muti may have been used to in other places. The Academy was a difficult place in which to record for engineers who preferred more reverberation in the recorded sound. The orchestra often recorded in gymnasiums. One hope of the proponents of a new hall (which became the Kimmel Center many years later) was that the orchestra would be able to record in the hall. It doesn't still, and now it barely records at all.
Of course, the orchestra owned the Academy and pays rather high rent at the Kimmel. And some of the Kimmel Center's other drawbacks are described in one of those articles by Peter Dobrin.
Karl
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Author: Bartmann
Date: 2010-03-10 16:58
This is a terrible state of affairs for orchestral music.
Post Edited (2010-03-11 14:10)
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2010-03-10 17:53
Here in Germany, the orchestras are subsidized. I have mixed feelings about that. Munich has two extremely good orchestras, the Münchner Philharmoniker and Der Bayrischen Rundfunk (which I think is particularly wonderful) It also has a wonderful opera. I am currently teaching English for a living. It is rare that I have a native Munich student who has not attended an opera or a symphony concert. This is partly because subsidies make the tickets affordable. It is also because the culture in Germany says these things are important. Last year the Opera performances of "academic atonal" "Wozzeck" sold out.
On the other hand, when I attend the concerts, I find that the audience is typically not exactly low income, so it seems to me of a case of the poor subsidizing the rich man's pleasure.
I offer no solutions, just observations.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2010-03-10 17:58
I have yet to see any one back up how the Orchestra has been managed well in recent years. If this is the case, and there is no evidence, then they are logically having problems. They musicians should take salary cuts like those in the automotive industries, not these seemingly small ones. It seems that it should have been run more like a business, and less like a grand artistic masterpiece that still needs money to be supported. Please comment on this sentiment, I'm interested in what the more knowledgeable members are thinking in regard to these thoughts.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-03-10 18:50
Of course, the only part of that that's specific to coming for a concert is the ticket price. The rest would be the same no matter where you go away from your home area for whatever purpose. I spend that routinely for my family to see a show on Broadway.
Karl
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Author: clarionet
Date: 2010-03-10 19:01
Here it is not that the Orchestra is subsidized, but that it is a part of the local or provincial government. There are cheaper and expensive seats and young people under 25 can attend the entire season -18 concerts- for 30 euros or so!
Of course there must be a loss, but attendance seems to be fairly consistent despite the deep crisis. A recent 3-day classical music festival with 70 concerts sold 30800 seats, and we are not that large a city. And there are all sorts of ages. Also, I find that here people are very careful dressers even when they would be from lower income families, and it is harder to judge how well-off they maybe from their appearance.
Sometimes people tend to say that about "poor subisdizing the rich", but my city also pays sums of money to football teams (that I don't watch)- including at one time 6 million euros to rescue our professional football team, which is supposedly a private club- basketball and other sports, and a hundred and one other activities. So I think it maybe the same in Munich: some people will benefit from the classical music, but these people may be paying their taxes that go towards other activities.
In short, I think music lovers should stop feeling guilty. As long as the money is being spread out over a wide range of services, it will balance out.
But this perhaps is not applicable to the USA where they work on very different lines.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-03-10 19:04
Well, it _is_ "a grand artistic masterpiece" whether or not it's in fact sustainable in the long run by its traditional financial structure. It isn't a business in the same sense as the auto industry - workers having the needed skill set are not so easily found and the product is not output on a mechanized assembly line.
Symphony orchestras began in the U.S. as philanthropic projects of the wealthy. That model has obviously become insufficient to cover the costs of modern orchestras, whatever the reasons, so the orchestras will need to look at their costs and revenue sources differently. The business model of the symphony orchestra, especially in the U.S. where there is not the level of public subsidy that exists in some places, will no doubt need to change, but I'm not sure that using the manufacturing industries as models would succeed in doing anything but destroying the product.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-03-10 19:18)
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2010-03-10 21:20
kdk wrote:
> Well, it _is_ "a grand artistic masterpiece" whether or not
> it's in fact sustainable in the long run by its traditional
> financial structure. It isn't a business in the same sense as
> the auto industry - workers having the needed skill set are not
> so easily found and the product is not output on a mechanized
> assembly line.
>
> Symphony orchestras began in the U.S. as philanthropic projects
> of the wealthy. That model has obviously become insufficient to
> cover the costs of modern orchestras, whatever the reasons, so
> the orchestras will need to look at their costs and revenue
> sources differently. The business model of the symphony
> orchestra, especially in the U.S. where there is not the level
> of public subsidy that exists in some places, will no doubt
> need to change, but I'm not sure that using the manufacturing
> industries as models would succeed in doing anything but
> destroying the product.
>
> Karl
>
>
> Post Edited (2010-03-10 19:18)
You mention not that easy to find. I would definitely disagree with that. Every position that comes up has hundreds of applicants, and many more that do not choose to audition. The auto industry reference was not ment to describe their method of running, but the steep cuts they go through to stay in business (and the government subsidization that I wish would come through, for the Orchestra of course).
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: DixieSax
Date: 2010-03-11 02:11
Just up the road from Baltimore and west of Philly, the York PA symphony has cut its summer pops program completely.
http://www.yorkdispatch.com/local/ci_14639022
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2010-03-11 14:39
The Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra has had success in the last 3 years with: 1. A new music director, young, loved by the musicians, appreciative of ALL including the behind-the-scenes volunteers and students, 2. A 2-for-1 ticket price for new patrons (these often go ahead in the second year to buy full-priced season tickets), 3. Special low prices for young people and students, and 4. Flex subscriptions... you choose which 4 or 5 of the concerts you wish to attend, Classics or Pops. You're not tied to one or the other. There are other events that the orchestra hosts as well, such as the recent Young Performer's Competition.
Although the orchestra obviously has to watch the bottom line every day, still the concert hall is fuller and more excited than 4 years ago.
<www.hpo.org>
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-11 18:27
There are many reasons so many orchestra's in the US are in trouble. I think the fact that classical music is not part of our heritage as it is in many European countries is plays a large part. Also, our educational system does not encourage classical music. Another is that because musicians want to make a decent living so many orchestra's have demanded longer seasons over the years so that they had full year employment. Another reason of course is that like all arts in this county, they just don't pay for themselves. Then of course there's so many other forms of entertainment to have to compete with as well as TV, CDs etc that where not available years ago. Orchestra in the US typically only raise about half there expenses from tickets sales, at best . The rest has to come from private donations, including their endowments of course, gov't grants, usually for educational projects, and the same for private and cooperation grants. Some, but very few, make some money from recording sales and tours, though they usually need to be sponsored buy corporations or gov't grants from the sites the orchestra's are performing at. There are very few gov't subsidies and those usually are targeted to some type of special project.. If we charged as much as we needed to pay for our expenses almost no one would be able to afford to attend a live concert if they wanted to.
I think it's obvious that the tough economic times are severely hurting most of the arts, especially orchestra's. Many cooperations have moved out of the large cities or are having financial problems themselves so they have cut their donations as well as individuals have.
I think it is correct that in many orchestra's the music director, very highly paid by the way, only does about have of the regular classical subscription concerts, some more and in many of the biggest orchestra's less.
As far as the question about assistant conductors and guest conductors. In many orchestra's it's the guest conductor or guest artist that attracts an audience. Doing the same program with a well known and respected guest conductor will attract more audience members than using a staff, assistant, conductor. The same could be said about getting well known guest soloists as apposed to using members of the orchestra. One thing orchestra's try to do is have several big name guest conductor and soloist in order to help sell subscriptions because sometimes they sell out for single ticket sales. It's a big problem here in the USA and I don't see it getting much better in the near future. I believe there are only a few American orchestra's that are not having big financial problems today. It's a shame. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-03-11 20:55)
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