 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-22 02:37
When did buffet add the adjustable thumb rest on the R13?
Also, does anyone know an on line source that sells the OLDER non adjustable buffet thumb rests?
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-10-22 04:53
hm, its been a number of years. more than 8, which is when i bought my last R13. I think its been closer to 15 or 20 actually.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-22 11:14
Your local repair person will have GOBS of regular thumbrests lying around. Just have him/her install at the point you prefer and he/she will fill the holes from the cheap, worthless, highly breakable adjustable thumbrest from our good friends at Buffet.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-22 12:17
"just have him/her install at the point you prefer and he/she will fill the holes from the cheap, worthless, highly breakable adjustable thumbrest from our good friends at Buffet."
I am wondering if they are worse than worthless, if we will see clarinetist in the future suffering from arthritis, or carpal tunnel, as a result of using those ridiculous thumb rests.
Curious as to how long it will take for a clarinetist to develop problems with their hands, back, neck, etc due to the adjustable monstrosity.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-22 16:43
Well...........it's not the adjustable issue, it is the very cheap (pot metal?) metal and thins construction of the mechanism. Several "boarders" have asked for info on replacing ones they have broken and several associates and myself have taken turns breaking them.
The issue of carpal tunnel is always FOREFRONT in my mind and this is a separate issue.
Be SURE that you look at where your right index finger sits in relation to the BOTTOM sidekey. Many younger players have been moving the thumbrest closer to the top of the bottom joint. If you're not paying attention to the "whole system," you may be positioning the right index finger too far up to even reach DOWN to the bottom side key. Thus the fix, which is to push up with your thumb to makes space for this deficit. This is the action that may cause serious hand strain in my view.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-22 18:01
For those of you who are fairly new to this messageboard and don't already know, Buffet fit the base of the adjustable thumbrest in exactly the same location as the fixed ones that were previosly fitted as that's where the screw holes happen to be drilled into the body, so the only adjustment you will have with these adjustable thumbrests is downwards while it remains in this location.
So as long as you find the uppermost position comfortable, you can fit the older fixed thumbrest with no problem (but there is a blind hole in the body to allow the locking screw/ring to be screwed in place - but don't over-torque this screw on your current adjustable thumbrest as you'll either strip the thread or snap the rails of the thumbrest).
Leblanc Opus have a similar designed thumbrest as the older Buffet Prestige one from the '80s, so if you can't source the older Buffet type (which are pretty expensive from what I remember), you may be able to get a Leblanc one and have it fitted so you have adjustment in both directions - not just downwards.
Or for a different design, there are Yamaha-style adjustable thumbrests (most likely Chinese copies) being sold by companies that supply woodwind (and brass) parts, and they're reasonably priced.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-10-22 18:05)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-22 19:38
Chris P wrote:
> For those of you who are fairly new to this messageboard and
> don't already know, Buffet fit the base of the adjustable
> thumbrest in exactly the same location as the fixed ones that
> were previosly fitted as that's where the screw holes happen to
> be drilled into the body, so the only adjustment you will have
> with these adjustable thumbrests is downwards while it remains
> in this location.
>
> So as long as you find the uppermost position comfortable, you
> can fit the older fixed thumbrest with no problem
Personally, I think the uppermost location is still too low- I do not see what benefit one has to make the rest even lower. If an adjustable thumb rest should have any value, it would be if it adjusted HIGHER than where the old fashioned ones were placed.
Even with the adjustable ones set in the high position, i find it much less comfortable than a set rest. Rarely do I set my thumb below a thumb rest. I usually have my thumb on top, or flush against the back of the thumb rest. I play with my clarinet resting on a knee, or the thighs, and any adjustment I need to make with respect to clarinet in the mouth is done with the legs, not the hands. My hands are used to press keys and holes, and to give balance with the thumb when necessary. Never to "hold" the instrument.
I need to get a dozen old rests for my instruments, and my students.
Do any of the cheap, non adjustable rests on the market fit on a buffet, WITHOUT requiring drilling? I would prefer just do it myself, rather than send my students to a repairman.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2009-10-22 21:00
If wishes were horses we'd all have the Pro Koopman models, eh?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-22 21:34
What rubbish that Buffet adjustable thumb rest is. If you really it adjustable, then a cheap Jupiter one is far better made.
"Personally, I think the uppermost location is still too low- I do not see what benefit one has to make the rest even lower. If an adjustable thumb rest should have any value, it would be if it adjusted HIGHER than where the old fashioned ones were placed."
I quite agree, but some some players - oddly to me - like them lower.
"Do any of the cheap, non adjustable rests on the market fit on a buffet, WITHOUT requiring drilling? I would prefer just do it myself, rather than send my students to a repairman."
It is good that you seem to be indicating that drilling new holes is a job fro a technician....
The old Buffet rests, and most of the old ones on other brands, and the ones on most new clarinets, and also the ones that technicians buy cheaply from several suppliers, all have remarkably consistent hole spacing. Likewise the screws are fairly standard.
A lot is asked of these rather short screws, and the safety of the clarinet depends on them. So they need to be installed in a way that retains maximum grip in the timber. Also, typical wood screws or PK screws must not be forced in, or the timber is likely to split.
The correct screws are seldom made from steel, and are fairly weak. If you force them into suitably small diameter, unthreaded holes, then the heads will break off.
Some technicians heat the screws to more or less burn their way into the timber, probably with holes drilled larger diameter than they should be for a reliably gripping thread. I cannot see how that makes a good job.
As far as screw threads go, this grenadilla timber behaves more like metal or a hard, engineering plastic, rather than like typical timbers, so I believe that a tap should be used to make a thread of the correct pitch, and a firm fit.
The thread is typically 1.8 to 2.0 mm diameter and with a pitch of 0.6 mm. Technicians' suppliers' used to stock taps for this type of screw but I have not seen them for a while. And I never found one of that pitch. So I made my own from the rare screws that ARE made from steel. It is the highly non-standard, very coarse pitch for that diameter that is difficult to come by in a tap.
So good luck with your DIY work.
I have mentioned this for the benefit of ANYBODY planning to force wood screws into grenadilla in order to hold a thumb rest on.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-22 22:36
I've seen the mess people have made when trying to screw the small self tapping screws into grenadilla without drilling the hole first - scratches from slipped screws and gouges from screwdriver blades.
And when drilling these holes, use a depth gauge on the drill to be sure you don't go through to the bore - a piece of plastic tubing that fits tightly on the drill to leave 5mm of the drill showing (5mm including the tip), or a piece of tape stuck round the drill will do.
I use a 1.7mm drill mounted in a piece of 2.4mm steel that acts as a depth stop (at 5mm) so all wood screw holes are drilled to the same depth on oboe and clarinet bodies - the wood screws Howarth use are self tapping and made from stainless steel, and have parallel sides instead of being tapered.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-23 00:32
Thanks for the replies, but I have no intention of drilling new holes. If I cant use the existing holes, then I will wait until I see my repair man. I am hoping that their is some type of "universal" standard for the hole spacing, so that I could use the existing holes.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-10-23 04:27
>> I think the uppermost location is still too low- I do not
>> see what benefit one has to make the rest even lower.
The benefit is for people who prefer the lower position. One time I tried raising the thumb rest. In the new position, after about 15 minutes of playing my thumb started hurting so much it was impossible to play. I returned to the original position, and that or slightly lower is much more comfortable.
The higher position made me use a lot of a muscle there. The lower position forces my thumb into a position that I can't use this muscle. Mostly the same as how you can't hold a strong fist when bending your hand from yoru arm. I know some players don't put the Buffet adjustable thumb rest at the highest position.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-23 11:12
As everyone's physiology is different, it's impossible to please everyone no matter where the thumbrest is positioned and how much or little adjustment it offers, so alterations will very often have to be done to accommodate the player if they find things uncomfortable.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-24 13:49
Thanks, Chris for the info on the superior Howarth screws.
Trust Howarth to do it right!
Is it best for a technician to buy them direct from Howarth, or does one of the suppliers to the repair trade stock them? I have not noticed them in any catalogue
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-10-24 14:06
I wish Buffet (or any other makers) put saxophone like thumb rest.
Buffet's is one of the worst.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-24 18:12
Dear Salzo,
The stress on the hand to which I refer (as does Clarnibass) is a result of holding the clarinet. So, as long as the weight is not involved, there should be no undue stress.
However............
I am very concerned with two things:
1) Where IS your right index finger in this position with regard to the lowest sidekey? Is THIS the adjustment you refer to that is done with your legs/thighs?
2) If not, WHAT adjustment is necessary? The clarinet should sit inert at its spot determined by the length of the lay of the mouthpiece. From there you just blow. I have NEVER made any adjustments in or out while playing for ANY reason.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-24 19:44
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Dear Salzo,
>
>
>
> The stress on the hand to which I refer (as does Clarnibass) is
> a result of holding the clarinet. So, as long as the weight
> is not involved, there should be no undue stress.
>
> However............
>
>
> I am very concerned with two things:
>
> 1) Where IS your right index finger in this position with
> regard to the lowest sidekey? Is THIS the adjustment you refer
> to that is done with your legs/thighs?
>
> 2) If not, WHAT adjustment is necessary? The clarinet should
> sit inert at its spot determined by the length of the lay of
> the mouthpiece. From there you just blow. I have NEVER made
> any adjustments in or out while playing for ANY reason.
>
>
>
> ..................Paul Aviles
>
Paul- A picture would be better, but my index finger is about 5mm below the bottom side key. The fingers are also rounded to the holes.
To clarify the leg mouthpiece business: I play double lip. Certain notes are a little bit different to balance. Throat F, throat G, high B and C. On these notes, and sometimes others, I do not add or change the mouthpiece position, but sometimes, I have to be careful that the mouthpiece does not "fall down". So in order for me to keep it constant, I sometimes have to slightly tighten my legs so as to keep the clarinet from falling out of my mouth (not really falling out, more like falling down), or adjust the thumb ever so slightly, perhaps resting (pushing forward and down) on the back of the rest, or placing the thumb flush against the clarinet, with part of the thumb on the top of the rest (this reads pretty crazy and complicated, but it isnt at all. It is very relaxed, which is why I do it, and my hands are free).
I have studied with some very well known clarinetists, and none of them had a problem with any of this. One of my teachers said "you shouldnt do that(he was also opposed to double lip playing), because your fingers are not relaxed(again, the whole point was so that they are relaxed), and I would not be able to play pieces such as Daphnis et Chloe. After he said this, I played the first few pages of Daphnis
He remarked that it sounded good, and gave me his blessing to continue playing this way.
I am not trying to convert anyone. I am just saying it works for me, and for quite a few of my students who were having hand /embouchure issues
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Author: abstruse_melisma
Date: 2009-10-30 20:26
I've been told the thumb rest is positioned optimally when only the slightest touch of the mouthpiece to the teeth is necessary to balance the clarinet from swinging downward. In that location there is much less strain on the right hand, regardless of its size. I do despise the fact that the adjustable ones always seem to loosen on their own.
Devin T.B. Langham
Clarinet Performance Major
Michigan State University
interlude
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-30 20:44
Dear Salzo,
Ok, that sounds fine. I had played double lip for a year or so in college and recall that there are MANY benefits in that it allows a much more fluid sound (perhaps more like Harold Wright as opposed to Larry Combs).
So I sympathize with the stability issue. One of the reasons I fell off the wagon and never went back.
ALSO,
Good news for you "high thumbrest people." Selmer is listening.......the new Privilege (at least) has the adjustable thumbrest considerably higher (and made more like the older "post" style Buffet ones - the ones that worked!!!).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-31 17:27
Attachment: HowarthScrews.jpg (172k)
Gordon,
Howarth used to list all the various small screws, but I can't find anything on the website. Attached is a photo of the various types of small screws used.
I'm sure if you contact them they could supply you with the type and quantity you want - the various stainless steel screws are:
A - Wood screws - self-tapping, 2.8mm head
B - Adjusting screws (oboe) - 2mm thread, 2.4mm head
C - Point screws (oboe) - 2mm thread, 2.4mm head
D - Point screws (clarinet) - not sure the thread size, 3mm head
E - Adjusting screws (clarinet) and adjustable thumbrest grub screw - 3mm thread
Other small screws (in blackened steel) are:
F - Pinning screws for pinning keywork (with countersunk head)*
G - Flat spring screws (2mm head)*
H - Eb master spring screw - a small self-tapping screw which requires a 1mm pilot hole drilled into the body.
* these have a 12BA thread and need a 1.1mm hole tapped out with a 12BA tap.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-11-01 00:29
I think that the thumbrest position should as a priority be adjusted to get the hand position correct for the player, not to "balance" the clarinet.
A tip for double lip players.. using a crystal mouthpiece increases the mass at the top end and causes a distinct if slight downward pressure on the lower lip that I find very beneficial. Perhaps adding some mass to a rubber mouthpiece might work too.
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