 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brendan Martin
Date: 2009-08-27 07:58
Hi and thanks for reading.
Im having some issues keeping in tune when i play up to C above the staff (and into the altissimo). When i get to Clarion A/B it starts going flat up to like 20 on the tuner i use (im not sure exactly what this number represents, is it Hz?) but as i get to C its out sometimes up to 40 or more.
I am tuning to 440Hz
This is while I am playing single lip. When i swap to double lip i find that at most on C i am maybe 10 flat.
I have tried both a B45 and a 5RV mouthpeice. I have tried a strength 3 and 3.5 Forestsone reeds, although i dont know if it is the hardware since when im playing double lip im able to play in tune much easier.
Below these notes I am able to play in tune all the way down to bottom E.
I do have a teacher, she just tells me to try to "think high" and the notes will come out in tune, but im not having much luck!
Im an adult learner. I have been playing around 1 and a half years so far and really love my clarinet. The advice on this board has helped me a lot so far.
Thanks again.
Brendan
Post Edited (2009-08-27 08:02)
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-08-27 10:10
Hi, Brendan.......... it might be helpful if you qouted the make and model of your clarinet- the problem might be typical of your instrument- or if it is second-hand it may have been interfered with. "Thinking the notes up" may work to some extent for someone with a strong well developed embouchure, but for a beginner, I would suggest that this is one instance where mind-over- matter doesn't work. I am sure that you will be deluged with good advice from the experienced and helpful board members, and I just wanted to get the ball rolling.
I play a B12 that I have "doctored" for very similar reasons to yours........ at first I put up with the slight flatnes in this area (as they say- it's good enough for jazz), but when I became more critical as when playing longer notes in an exposed classical setting, I realised that I had to do something about it - in fact I began to get annoyed more with the flatness of the corresponding (finrgered) notes at the top of the chalumeau reg.
A few hours spent with a small file undercutting the appropriate tone holes, (upwards, of course) and the problem was gone.
The big problem with trying to "lip up" flat notes is that it ruins your tone.
The flat altissimo notes seems to be a universal problem- many sufferers appear to be playing expensive instruments, and again while the standard fingerings are "good enough for jazz" you will probably be best to work out your own altissimo scale (from D and upwards) using perhaps the suggested alternatives on this site.
Best wishes with your new hobby, and I also look forward to reading the advice of other players....... H n' P.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-08-27 11:03
Of course your teacher is getting at "voicing" which is key to many timbre and pitch issues, HOWEVER, I would ask if the Vandorens you are using are the "13 Series," (American pitch standard) models?
If so.........
Theses mouthpieces are made with larger tone chambers than their non 13 Series counterparts. They supposedly are compatable with 440 American pitch standards but I think they should be avoided along with about 90% of the custom mouthpieces marketed to be "dark" sounding or "set-to-American-pitch." What they do is lower the pitch of the fundamental produced by your moupthpiece (if you squeal on JUST the mouthpieces side by side you will hear a BIG difference in pitch). This tendency affects the notes that are closest to the physical top of your horn.....the notes you say you are having trouble playing in tune.
Of course you not be using a 13 Series mouthpiece, but I still stand behind my rant.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-08-27 15:37
What puzzles me is that you play it better in tune when playing double lip, which is usually more relaxed. Most often the problem with the B-C is that they are sharp not flat when there is a problem with the instrument. I always tell me students when looking for a new instruments to make sure the 12ths are not to large, that is that the b-c are not sharp and the e-f below are not flat.
First off, ask you teacher to play it if you haven't already to make sure it's not the fault of the clarinet. Then have him-her, play it with your mouthpiece to make sure it's not that. If they can play it in tune without a problem with your equipment then it's a voicing problem. Believe it or not it could also be a reed problem so you can try a cane reed to see if that helps first. If you determine it is you and not any equipment problem then it's a voicing problem and I'd suggest you read some articles on my clarinet page in my website to see if something there helps in my voicing suggestions. It might me as easy to fix as raising your tongue higher when you go up high, but it could be more complicated. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Brendan Martin
Date: 2009-08-27 17:50
Thanks for the responses so far.
The clarinet is a Newly bought Hanson T5 (Its a UK based clarinet company). Its about 6 months old.
I think I will get my teacher to test it herself as Ed has suggested. I have tried changing my single lip embrochure in every way i can think of but unless i really bite down (which i know im not supposed to do) i just cant get it in tune.
I just cant understand why i can easily play B/C and altissimo D/E in tune double lip and yet single lip im really struggling.
Maybe its trying to tell me to switch to double lip full time
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-08-28 09:15
Brendan.......... have you listened carefully to the tuning of the e/f notes at the top of the chalumeau? Sometimes you can be more troubled by the flatness of high notes than of low notes. I ask this because it might help in identifying the problem as a mouthpiece mis-match or an instrument build problem.
How are the throat notes for pitch? that might be a strong clue.
Ed.......... I am constantly reading about pitch problems by players on much more expensive instruments than mine..... there is no difficulty with expanded or shrunken 12ths on my B12. When I raised the pitch on my e/f and b/c the notes followed each other perfectly into what I would consider to be very adequate pitch without any detrimental effect on any other notes, and as I have said, I have never looked back. I must be playing on the cheapest (decent) student model on the market, and I can see no reason to change since I am not trying to impress anyone. (a bit if inverse snobbery here?)
Brendan............. a great hobby, and I hope you get sorted out- but do let us know what happens.................. H n'P
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-08-28 12:57
Brendan:
The scale on your tuner represents "cents"
100 cents means one semi-tone. 50 cents means 1/4 tone etc.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-08-28 14:51
Brendan,
I'm having a hard time trying to figure out your predicament. You say that when you play with a double embouchure the pitch is better than with a single lip embouchure.
Are you relaxing the muscles whilst playing single lip? A double lip would require the muscles to be stronger hence the reason it is better in tune.
Another thing to consider is what is happening at the back of the throat, if this is closed off somewhat it would make those notes difficult to get. Try opening up a little keeping the back of the tongue as low as possible whilst not putting to much pressure with the lower lip on the reed and using the top lip muscles and corners to form the sound and embouchure. In terms of voicing think 'AHHH' or 'BARR'. Try to avoid 'EEEE' as this raises the back of the tongue too much which in my opinion is not good.
Feel free to contact me off line.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: ClarinetPlayer_18
Date: 2009-08-28 21:31
I'm far from an expert (I've only taken lessons for about a year and a half) but maybe part of it could just be that you need to wait and just keep playing? When i started taking lessons nothing with the register key was ever in tune (or really anything at all) and I struggled to get any notes above that high C. But, with some time with my teacher of a year or so and a bit of playing and some practicing most of my problems have gone away. For me tuning issues are now with notes that are like two Cs above the staff and i think that a lot of it just has to do with time. As long as you have a good embochure and are doing things correctly, it should always improve with time.
My advice would be to have your teacher check your equipment and also your technique. (Last night actually, I had a lesson and right at the end I asked my teacher to check my embochure, to make sure i wasn't biting or cheating in any way to reach certain notes. I played slow and fast up a chromatic scale and finished on the double high C. Nothing was going wrong and it was good but my point is that you should definitely ask so that you don't find you are wrong later on haha )
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