 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sab15
Date: 2009-09-21 02:39
Hi,
I've noticed something recently with my clarinet B left pinky key after I took it in for a "physical" and some adjustments were done and some pads replaced. I actually don't remember if this was the case before the adjustments and I just didn't notice it. I actually brought it back to the tech and had him look at it again. He did make a small adjustment, but it still is not what I thought it should be. Anyway, when keying the clarion left pinky B with just the fingers for the D down it feels like I have to blow harder to get the sound out, whereas if the right pinky C is already down and then I key the left pinky B, it is easier. It's also ok when just using the right pinky B key. I did chat briefly with the tech about that and he mentioned that the pinky is weak and it's a lever. I myself also supposed for that fingering it needs to close 2 holes below (in my attempt to rationalize the situation), and not just 1 as when the right pinky C is also pressed.
So, the question is, should it really be more difficult to key the B (i.e. feel like I have to blow harder to get the sound out) with the left pinky (without the C key already pressed), or does my clarinet still need some further adjustment?
Thanks a lot.
Steven
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-21 05:01
What you describe is a usual adjustment problem. It can happen either from a problem with the adjustment of the F/C and E/B pads, causing one of them (usually the E/B) to close first. Or that one of them is (or both are) not completely aligned over the tone hole, needing more force than should be necessary to close, which is easier to do with the right pinky for several reasons. This is the most likely.
Since it is twice already that the clarinet was repaired and you still have the problem, consider trying a different repairer to get a differnet opinion. It could be that for some reason it's the way you play, and your left pinky is unsually weak, but that is extremely unlikely compared with the first option.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-09-21 06:02
good advice from clarnibass, spot on.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-09-21 18:37
Hi, sab15....... can I echo the advice.
I have recently overhauled my own clarinet that was exhibiting the same fault slightly. I also was puzzled because although there is an extra lever involved, the mechanical advantage (or lack of it) is almost identical for both hands.
Anyway, I paid particular attention to the padding at the bottom, and the corking that relates the C to the B keys, and the result is terrific. I can now play the clarion B cleanly with my left pinky only and using no effort at all - and crossing the break is a doddle.
As an extra....... please check that the pivot screw right down at the bell is not slack....... this can put the B pad off it's seating...... Best of luck.. H.n'P
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-21 20:08
A lot of regulation problems are due to keys being bent during assembly - so make sure you're not bending the RH F/C touchpiece down or bending the RH E/B touchpiece up when you're assembling it. Grip the clarinet with your left thumb holding the two large pad cups closed and wrap your fingers round the back of the joint during assembly.
And don't put anything in the case that will apply pressure to your clarinet when you close the lid on it.
As this is an easy thing to put right, the fact that it's been overlooked by your repairer speaks volumes about them, so look elsewhere for someone who knows what they're doing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-21 20:24
While I usually highly regard Clarnibass' advice, this time I'm not so sure.
> Anyway, when keying the clarion left pinky B with just the fingers for the D
> down it feels like I have to blow harder to get the sound out, whereas if the
> right pinky C is already down and then I key the left pinky B, it is easier. It's
> also ok when just using the right pinky B key.
In theory, the left and right pinky B are "equal", there is no (or hardly none) lost motion, and the crow's foot regulation applies to either (left and right) fingering. If "right pinky B" is okay, so should "left pinky B" be, as they operate on the same mechanism, and the "C" shouldn't be differently affected. (the left pinky has more force to press down a bad pad, at least in my experience)
I can only imagine that for some reason "left pinky B" is stopped in its motion before both the B and C pads are closed. This shouldn't happen with a pinned "left pinky B" spatula, but can with a push-only spatula, or the central post (where the rod is attached) is moving somehow. Or the keywork is unusually soft.
I agree that a repair person should a) check both sides to begin with and b) should be eliminate the root cause. I'm not saying it's a bad technician per se - I've had my fair share of being stumped with stuff that didn't work as it should - but you should see someone else, even if just for making sure you're seeing or feeling things right.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-21 20:59
It isn't always the case that RH and LH E/B keys will do exactly the same thing due to the amount of flexing or bending in the metal.
Closing the RH E/B touch on its own will cause the touchpiece and the key barrel to flex slightly in use making the F/C pad close much firmer than when closing the LH E/B key on its own (applying more pressure to the crows foot). The LH E/B key will apply the stress to a different part of the linkage, and not directly on the touchpiece.
My teacher always stressed to use the most direct linkage when playing E/B or F#/C# - so use the RH keys for the isolated notes instead of the LH levers as there's no extra linkages involved as the touchpieces are soldered directly to the key barrels.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-21 21:06
Chris P wrote:
> My teacher always stressed to use the most direct linkage when
> playing E/B or F#/C# - so use the RH keys for the isolated
> notes instead of the LH levers as there's no extra linkages
> involved as the touchpieces are soldered directly to the key
> barrels.
Hmm. Maybe for the same reason, my teacher taught me to use both left (B) and right (C) for the B. Just because.
I hear you. Yet I'd have to see it what exactly is wrong. Words convey what the reporter is seeing, not necessarily what is happening. (which is just the way it is, imagine me talking to my car technician, and my bonnet hasn't even been burned under)
--
Ben
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-09-21 21:53
I second Chris' comments as he said "for isolated B's". I use the "long B " to put a cl into good playability [tweaking], since it shows up problems elsewhere than just with the B. I judge a cl being "well adjusted "when the LH E/B responds immediately with good tonality. One should NOT have to "Herculese down" any of those lower key/pads IMHO, do some cross-fingering exercises to show up problems, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-21 22:05
y'know, Don, the player with the worst technician is the one with the biggest biceps. Or the other way round... ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-21 22:17
Instruments with very long lever keys and long key barrels (such as bass and lower clarinets, all saxes, bassoons and contrabassoons) need the amount of torsion in the long levers/rods taken into account when adjusting/regulating so they work properly and reliably.
And the best way to make multiple pad closures work when operated by one touchpiece is to make the pad pressure progressively lighter on each pad in turn as you get further away from the touchpiece (ie. when going further down the instrument).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-22 04:06
When there are linkages and/or levers there will always be some degree of flexing, and even more once you add silencing materials. So it will never be 100%. This causes the two optimal condition of SIMULTANEOUS closing and EQUAL closing pressure mutually exclusive (thanks to Gordon for this nice definition).
For clarinet this flexing is usually very very little (unless the keys are unusually soft). So it is still possible to set the linkage so even with left hand pinky only, and pressing with light pressure, both pads would seal. But only if each of the pads already seals with the lightest touch.
You can see this still even on good clarinets by pressing relatively hard with left pinky only, then add right pinky. It doesn't take much pressure to the touch piece moves even more.
>> I can only imagine that for some reason "left pinky B" is stopped in its
>> motion before both the B and C pads are closed. This shouldn't happen
>> with a pinned "left pinky B" spatula, but can with a push-only spatula
IME it's the opposite. A pin linakge, either F#/C# or E/B has more chances to stop before the F/C closes if the pin is the wrong size/shape, since both angle and alignment change between the pin and the hole when they move. This can't happen with a step linkage.
Maybe I didn't understand what you meant. Can you explain how this can happen with a step linkage but not in a pin linkage?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-22 07:05
> Maybe I didn't understand what you meant. Can you explain how this can
> happen with a step linkage but not in a pin linkage?
A pin linkage will cause the whole contraption to behave as "one piece", as the left spatula travels along when the the right one is pressed and vice versa. So - under ideal circumstances - it does not matter whether the left or the right pinky touchpiece has been pressed.
With a stepped linkage, however, the left lever could stop (because when pressed it touches eg the body or a lyre ring, the LH F/C lever...) in its motion but the keys aren't closed yet and you can close them further with your right hand. A step-linked lever cannot "hold back" the rest of the keys like a pin linkage can.
Just squeeze some cork between body and LH touchpieces (to keep them in the 'home' position) and you'll see what I mean. With stepped levers you can still close the keys with your right hand, with pins you can't.
So my theory remains that something is stopping the LH touchpiece from being fully depressed.
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-22 08:32
OK I know how these systems work but I see I just misread your post and didn't notice you meant something stopping only the lever. So you are right this can definitely (in theory) be the problem, but....
....I recently saw a clarinet where right pinky F#/C# worked but left hand didn't, and it was a pin linkage. Because the way the part move, the shape/size of the pin caused it to "stick" in its hole before F/C was closed. It worked ok enough so the force from right pinky was just exactly enough to close it, while the left pinky was very hard to overcome the extra resistant.
In addition, the low notes adjustment is one of the most common problems, and probabnly around 95% or more of the times the problem is the bird's foot adjustment or the pads not aligned (most common hitting in the back first).
If sab15 can say what linkage or what model he has it can help..... or a good repairer can solve it for him, possibly faster than it took to type any of these posts! 
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Author: RAB
Date: 2009-09-22 13:10
1st make sure the C/F pad closes perfect. use a feelers gauge at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock to insure the pads is seating the do it again at 1, 4, 7 and 11 o'clock. Use a very light touch on the key when you do this. If this pad is not "perfect" the the linkage will not work well.
Then put a small wedge under the crows foot to pull this pad down, then check the B/E key in the same manner.
After that it is a matter of using the pinky key to close both keys and keep regulating the crow's foot linkage until the feelers gauge is the same on both pads. This is tedious work but well wroth the time it takes.
Sometimes though this will be good and there is another leak somewhere else on the instrument. You might check that also.
If you can get:
A Guide to Repairing Woodwinds by Ronald Saska,
Roncopr Publications, ISBN 0-939103-03-6
He explains this process far better than I can and had detailed drawings to illustrate what to do.
Good Luck Hope this helps
RAB
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Author: sab15
Date: 2009-09-22 23:44
Clarnibass,
My clarinet is an intermediate Selmer mode - CL201. Sorry, I don't know what the linkage is.
Steven
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