 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jenelle
Date: 2000-11-07 18:11
I recently bought a very old clarinet at a flea market. It is most likely in the key of C, is natural wood color, has 6 keys plus the register key (which curves around to the front of the clarinet) on the upper joint, and 5 keys plus two ring keys around the finger holes. One of the pinky keys on the lower joint is hinged. The only marking on the instrument is a "C" stamped on the upper joint. Does anyone know what I have, or where I can find out?
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-11-07 18:46
This *may* be a late 19th century or early 20th century clarinet, but there are also "simple system" clarinets still being made today, and there are hobby replicas and professional replicas of old instruments. It might be hard for anyone to tell you for sure what you've got over the Internet, unless this is a "simple system" clarinet for students. I think it may be one of these, just because a "simple system" in C is the most likely to show up at a flea market. Otherwise, an expert would have to look at how the keys are made, how the wood is worked, and so forth. Sometimes a replica maker will sign the clarinet inconspicuously, inside a tenon, underneath a key rod, or someplace like that.
Except for the wrap-around register key, are the other keys arranged as for the Boehm system? How are the keys shaped? Are the parts where the pads go circular-shaped? Oblong, flat and paddle shaped? Are they raw brass or plated with something? Are the pinkie key touches flat (with or without rollers?) or rounded?
How about the wood? What color is it? Is there a mouthpiece? What is it made of, and what does it look like, compared to a modern one? Is there a case? What does that look like?
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Author: ron b.
Date: 2000-11-07 19:05
Hard to say, Jenelle, without a look at it or a fair picture. Your address seems to indicate you're from Sact'o. So'm I. If you're from around here, and wish to eMail me, I'll be glad to have a look. Right off I'd guess it's a Mueller(type) horn - 'simple system'. Without further info it's hard to guess.
ron b. in sact'o (fair oaks) ca
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Author: ron b. (again)
Date: 2000-11-07 19:22
Hi, Lelia -
Well, while I was responding you were writing (exactly what I was thinking!). You're right on, as usual, about needing more descriptive info. If it's possible to examine the instrument we'd need to look for all the things you mention. It could be an oldie, a real collectible, or a cheap replica. The immediate question that comes to mind now is the curved register key with that few(5) other keys. The 'hinged' key likely(?) refers to the E/B which has been used since forever or it could be the F/C (klappe) instead of the usual open tone hole for that note. Anyway, hope we can come up with some more detailed info. You never know what might turn up at flea markets.
ron b.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-11-07 21:21
Right, Ron -- and even if it's a modern replica, it could still be something nifty. Some of those replicas (including ones made by hobbyists) are excellent clarinets.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-11-07 22:24
If you want more opinions, go to "earlyclarinet@egroups.com" [hope that's correct]. There are many very knowledgable restorers who read and give all sorts of advice. Some of our "good books" have pics of oldies. If the URL needs help, I'll look it up. Don
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Author: Jenelle
Date: 2000-11-07 23:34
I took the whole thing apart, cleaned it, and it was in such terrible shape that it made me think it was old. There were corks on it, but they were useless. Some of the pads look to be leather, and the key holes the pads cover are round. The keys are arranged in the Bohem system, and the keys themselves look to be hammered into shape. The pinky keys are mostly rounded where they are touched, no rollers are used. The hinged key is the B/E key on the lower joint. The keys themselves are not coated with anything, and the soldering is evident. The mouthpiece most likely isn't original, since it is a very heavy acrylic, possibly glass? It has wrapped string instead of cork, but otherwise is modern. No case. Hope this helps.
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Author: ron b.
Date: 2000-11-08 06:39
Jenelle - I'd like to ask a couple of questions:
1) Can you describe where the (5)keys and rings are located?
2) Do the keys appear to be plated? (if so, what kind of metal do you think they are)?
It could be a mismatched something or other. It happens.
Yes to your comment above, Lelia, I've seen some really nice reproductions. They're valuable for that reason alone. It's amazing what some hobbyists are able to turn out.
ron b.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-11-08 12:11
One suggestion for people who buy what they think might be old clarinets: DON'T do any cleaning or other work on them, until they're appraised. The old pads are clues. Even dirty old reeds (ick!) can give clues to the last date when the clarinet was used, if there's an obsolete reed still on the mouthpiece. Keep all the junk in the case, too. A ligature that's been stepped on and flattened until it's worthless may still give a clue, if it's a type that's no longer made. Any little scraps of paper left in the case, university stickers on the outside, etc. can help with the detective work.
All the information so far sounds like this clarinet is a C-pitched "simple system". The corks may not be original, but if the tenons originally had thread wound around them, then the clarinet would probably date from before about -- what, 1910 or so? Don, you know these dates better than I do. Even then, thread doesn't *always* indicate an old clarinet -- it can mean an old owner, who grew up with thread, couldn't abide those newfangled corks, stripped them off and replaced them with good old thread, maybe as late as the 1930s or 1940s.
Another exception is the new Chinese-made clarinet imported through India. This cheap import has obsolete-looking keywork, bright red pads and bright red thread on the tenons -- but this new simple system clarinet is obviously trashy and brand new. Fortunately, you haven't wasted money on one of those!
Condition can tell you something isn't brand new, but it can be deceptive, too. I've seen instruments from the 1960s (dated definitely by their serial numbers) that were so filthy and deteriorated that they looked like they'd been kicked around since Prince Albert died.
Yes, your mouthpiece could be glass. Crystal mouthpieces are still made and some of them are excellent. Very fragile!
You can see how complicated it gets to date something definitely. Even experts (I'm definitely not one!) sometimes disagree. Is there a museum or music shop in your area with an employee who knows old instruments, or who can identify the telltale markings left by hand tools (as opposed to power tools)? For a fair appraisal, you might want to stipulate that you're not planning to sell. Try to talk to someone with no interest in buying from you -- otherwise someone might give you a breezy lowball appraisal with the idea of getting a bargain -- "Oh, it's worthless -- why don't I take it off your hands for $20.00...."
Good luck in solving your mystery! What fun!
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Author: ron b.
Date: 2000-11-08 16:09
Lelia,
What you say is accurate as can be. If you suspect you have something worthwhile in the antique department, by all means preserve any and all clues you can. I'm certainly no 'expert' (either) but what has me puzzled at this point is that it was stated that this is a five-keyed instrument then, later, that the keys are arranged in the Boehm system. Are some of the keys missing, posts with nothing between them? I agree that cork is a fairly recent innovation. Unless I'm greatly mistaken (and I have been before, believe me), there is no such thing as a five key Boehm system - flute or otherwise.
I remember seeing something on eBay a couple(?) months ago. Upper joint was Boehm, lower joint Albert. It looked like a scrapheap mismatch but, it certainly had more than five keys.
Anyway... the most helpful thing you could do, if possible, Jenelle, is post a picture of it. That might resolve things in very short order.
If the mouthpiece is glass you may have a prizewinner in that department.
ron b.
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Author: Jenelle
Date: 2000-11-09 01:04
The 5 keys are on the bottom joint. The upper joint has 6 keys plus the register key. Thanks for all of your help Leila, Ron and Don. I guess I have a project on my hands.
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Author: Bobby Godwin
Date: 2000-11-09 19:29
Lelia, I am a clarinetist and repairman and I collect old instruments. I am looking at an Albert system clarinet right now and the key work (the number of keys on the top and bottom joints) are exactly as you describe on your clarinet. The key work seems to be much better on mine than yours, but it sounds like you might have some sort of Albert system
Bobby Godwin, Valdosta, Ga.
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Author: ron b.
Date: 2000-11-10 07:46
May I put in an IMHO? I tend to agree with Lelia, Bobby. Jenelle's description so far seems to fit a simple system C clarinet. An Albert ordinarily has a couple more keys than hers.
ron b.
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