 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tb0b
Date: 2000-11-03 03:43
how often should I oil the bore of my clarinet? it's a new R13 (about a month old)
what should I use? Is bore oil made especially for the bore better or should i use something else like olive or linseed oil?
also...how can excessive amounts of cork grease damage the clarinet? Whenever I put on cork grease, it gets pushed up towards the joint(?) parts. I usually take a paper towel and get it out of the little thingy.
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Author: William
Date: 2000-11-03 04:16
Bore oil--forget it. Cork grease--if you can see it after you have put it on, you are using too much. Touch the grease cake with your forefinger and spread it onto the cork that way. It probably isn't necessary to use grease every time you assemble your clarinet. Use it only when needed and then sparingly. Don't forget to swab after each session and wipe out the tendons and sleeves. Good clarineting.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-11-03 11:58
You should have gotten an owners guide to breaking in the instrument when you purchased it. Call Boosey and Hawkes and have them send you one if it wasn't in the case. Bore oil IS necessary in my part of the world.
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-11-03 12:09
Your new R-13 (congratualtions) was well oiled with natural oils at Buffet-land and probably will not need retreatment for a while. My test is to shine a flashlight in the upper tenon (where the barrel attaches) and see if the wood has lost its shine and looks reddish brown (the natural color of grenadilla wood after the darkened oil treated wood has lost that oil). If so, it is IMHO time to re-oil. Do not use linseed oil and again IMHO, leave the oil mixtures used to the pros. If you use the petroleum based cork grease you will "waterproof" the wood of the tenon as well as the cork but if the bore is unprotected at this point you have an awful marriage of potentially wet wood (where most of the moisture enters the clarinet) and the bone dry wood of the grease coated tenon itself. There have been several lively exchanges recently on the bulletin board about oiling and not oiling the bore - you should read these and make up your own mind. My own "newer" Buffet gets oiled and the cork gets a natural cork treatment that allows it to remain supple and breathe - retain controlled moisture content. After some time the cork will get saturated with the petroleum grease and you will not have to apply as much as before (partially because the cork has become compressed and will not expand any more due to its now grease soaked structure). When the cork no longer seals well it is time for a recork job. Best of luck with your new horn - The Doctor.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-11-03 12:25
Buffet specifically recommends <b>against</b> oiling a new clarinet in their care guide, so if tb0b follows their recommendation, he/she won't be oiling it for quite a while.
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2000-11-03 17:04
From what I've been told, a clarinet should see some bore oil, at the most, once a year. I have a new instrument and when it cracked (grr....) I was told Selmer hadn't properly oiled the inside of the instrument., which can be very difficult to get to. A repair technicain recommended to leave bore oil to someone with experience because the oil can damage the pads. Unless the instument is really dry, a shove-it slightly soaked can be run through the instrument for a minute and that should last for another year or two. Best of luck with the new R-13!!!
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-03 21:49
I was wondering if anyone could tell me what sort of bore oil Buffet uses on their R-13's. Is it natural or petroleum based? I emailed François Kloc to ask him a couple of questions. One was was about the bore oil, the other was a specific repair question. I recieved a rather cryptic reply. I was unable to make much sense out of part of the message, but he stated that their R-13's do not need to be oiled. As far as my specific repair question, he just told me to bring it to a repair tech. Perhaps I am wrong, but I still firmly believe in the old school of thought of oiling the bore, and will continue to do so. I just wanted to know what kind of oil they use. Is this some tightly kept secret? -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2000-11-03 22:20
I and my repair tech both know Francois Kloc on differing personal levels. He has known him very well from before he came to the US to work in Libertyville. HE actually does use oil on his clarinets and oboes. It is a special blend of 3 different oils. He worked on this oild when he was in France. I don't want to release the formula. Mainly because I don't have it in front of me right now and I can't remember it. But my repair guy uses it for all his horn repairs and my own horn. Much more effective than bore oil. I'm not saying bore oil dosen't work, or it's bad, but it's not all that good either. Also not oilding your horn can do more harm in the long run.
I would stay away from oils such as the linseed, or any other veggie oils. They can build up in the interior of the horn and form a coating that cannot be taken off, except with force. It's a hard job.
So at least once a year give a good bore oiling. Take all the keys off and make shure to LIGHTLY coat both the inside and outside of the horn. Let it sit overnight and wipe all excess off the next day. Then replace the keys, this is to protect the pads. if you don't feel comfortable doing this, definately take it to a repair tech. Also the good thing about having the keys off is that you can look for any damaged pads, and buff and clean the keys.
Oil prefernces are always, and wlways will be a BIG discussion topic and the debate, to oil or not to oil, will never be resolved.
One more point, never oil a plastic horn. It's amazing how many student horns that I see that are plastic and the kids oil it because they see something on the internet about oiling. Just a word of caution.
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Author: Gordon (New Zealand)
Date: 2000-11-04 02:58
Agree with Aaron In my experience ALL natural oils eventually go rancid, smell, and turn into stuff that resembles half set varnish. Yuck!
If you MUST use bore oil use the totally synthetic 'AIisyn' , or perhaps parafin oil.
Vaseline based cork grease permeates the tenon corks and softens the adhesive.
Almost all cork greases on the market are silicon based junk. The market has been conned. These greases quickly dry to something with more friction than having than NO cork grease at all. They are also gooey to handle. Clean it all off and go for the Alisyn product - a far superior synthetic grease. You need very little, hardly ever.
Don't just wipe cork grease on; rub it in.
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Author: Ken Rasmussen
Date: 2000-11-04 03:56
Omar Henderson can't say it because of the Rules, but I can: Omar sells oil and cork grease, and he has a web site. At a minumum, you'll find it interesting to check out Omar's unique products. I bought some recently, and so far, so good. I probably won't go back to the other stuff. As a guy who lost a horn from a crack, there's no way I'd skimp on the oil. Also, do read the thread on bore oil from a few weeks ago. It was the most in depth discussion of oiling I've seen.
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-04 04:08
Aaron, I am very interested in this "formula" of sorts. Do you think you could find out what exactly it is? You don't have to worry about me selling it or anything, I'm just interested in it for my own personal use. If you could get back to me on that, I'd greatly appreciate it. -- Nate Zeien
PS - As Ken mentioned, there is some good info about the Doctor's special products in a previous thread. He describes it quite well in some of his posts.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-11-04 12:05
Many thanks for the good words about my products. There are other good products out on the market and some real clunkers that will acturally shorten the potential life of your instruments. Just to clarify a point or two - natural oils should not be lumped into one catagory, they all have different properties and some are excellent choices, because of these properties, for preserving grenadilla wood used in woodwinds. Certain oils such as linseed oil should not be used because they naturally polymerize over time and form a varnish like finish which is not desirable for clarinet bores. As mentioned, some natural oils will oxidize and turn rancid if a powerful, long lasting blend of antioxidants is not added to the oil. Much of the bad press about bore oiling has come from using the wrong oil or mixtures of oils that are not compatible with one another, or oils that do not contain the proper amount or types of emulsifiers and antioxidants. The points about cork "grease" are well taken - I prefer natural formulas that allow cork to retain a certain moisture content and therefore the swollen and compressible qualities of the natural cork, but natural formulas need a truly great lubricant to ease assembly and disassembly.
I too am privy to the some knowledge about the oil formulation that Buffet uses (- I have posted on this in the past) this is not to say that others such as Selmer, LeBlanc, etc. do not prepare their woods well too. This phorum is about communication and factual information so that readers can make their own informed decisions after reading and digesting the information presented . I think that Aaron should come out in some general way with the Buffet formula - at least "natural" or "synthetic". There is too much mystery, smoke and mirrors, and old wives tales in our woodwind world. Just let us keep our horns in top shape and concentrate on playing more and agonizing less about some mysterious oil formulation. The Doctor
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-04 18:14
In response to a couple of comments, first, the Doctor stated,
>There is too much mystery, smoke and mirrors, and old wives tales in our
>woodwind world. Just let us keep our horns in top shape and concentrate on
>playing more and agonizing less about some mysterious oil formulation.
I couldn't agree more. All we want to do is protect our instruments, our investments so to speak. I these people use this formula, it would be reasonable to say that it is in their opinion, best for the instrument. To keep this secret, you may as well snicker at a student and say "I'm not going to tell you..." Also, Jim wrote
>Yet another reason to stick with metal clarinets.
As a die hard metal clarinet fan myself, I can't help but chuckle at this. How true. I guess with metal clarinets, you either love 'em or you hate 'em. I suppose this is due to the fact that some people have played on nothing but student models, and others know the joy of finding a good metal clarinet. Anyway, if anyone could tell us this "formula" please do so. We just want to take good care of our clarinets! :-) -- Nate Zeien
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-11-05 02:07
To all - I know that we all would like to view the "holy grail of the ultimate bore oil" but this probably is not going to happen. I have spent a lot of time, money and effort researching this subject and unless the big companies are willing to share their oil formulations with us we will have to use our best judgement on what to use. I do not have first hand knowledge about the exact oil or oils that Buffet or other manufacturers use. I have second or third hand knowledge and I feel that it would be a disservice to give out inaccurate or bad advice. As a scientist by trade I bend over backwards to only give as fact those things that I can verify or prove. I have investigated the fatty acid composition of the oil, and probably its generic origin, probably consists of but there are too many variables to be absolutely catagorical. I have access to some pretty sophisticated scientific hardware and have gone so far as to leech the oil fraction out of a Buffet barrel, and junker clarinets from other manufacturers and then analyze the extracts with a liquid chromatograph-gas chromatograph to find out more facts about the composition of the oils in the wood. I view this as product research and the composition of my oil is a trade secret - this is my business to sell a quality oil product at a fair price. I would hope that the instrument manufacturers would give us more information about what oils to use, and/or justify the rationale for using the mineral oil that they market as bore oil, but do not hold your breath. Nate - I have been a poor student for a good part of my life too but we're not talking huge bucks here for bore oil! This whole thread is getting pretty boring too for most I would assume!
I would hope that some manufacturers will chime in and help us??-- The Doctor
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-05 02:54
In reponse to the Doctor's comment
>Nate - I have been a poor student for a good part of my life too but we're not
>talking huge bucks here for bore oil! This whole thread is getting pretty boring too
>for most I would assume!
It is not a matter of money, as bore oil is fairly inexpensive. It's not a matter of buying a certain brand of product either. I was just curious to find out what type Buffet uses for their clarinets. I'm not trying to bore anyone, but I'd just like to what kind of oil it is. It probably isn't such a big deal, I'm just curious to know. I'm sure as a scientist yourself you can understand that. It's not like this formula is magic or some holy grail. I just figured that if Buffet used it, then to them it must seem the best decision. If I can't find out, I'll just go with what is the best decision in my opinion. I'm not arguing against any type or brand of oil, I'm just curious as to what that stuff is. -- Nate Zeien
PS - If anybody else thinks I'm boring, just let me know and I'll keep my mouth shut. :-)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-11-05 12:01
Nothing personal - I do not think that you are boring - I am boring It would be nice to find out what kind of oil manufacturers use to prepare the wood for their clarinets and I am interested from the point of view that I want to make a product that will be compatible with this initial oil. This unfortunately brings up another aspect of this whole oiling game - what they use to soak the wood is probably not very useful as an application product that a player can swab through the bore of a fully assembled clarinet and then play at some reasonable time later. It is used to prepare and stabilize the wood and is a long (time of soaking) process for further manufacturing steps. How long the oil remains in the top couple of millimeters of the wood inside the bore depends on a bunch of player and environmental conditions plus the initial qualities of the particular piece of grenadilla wood treated. One could make up a "e.g. Original Buffet Oil - Bore Oil Treatment" that would be applied to the wood and sit there for several days without really soaking in very much - the excess would have to be carefully removed and if it got on the pads they might be ruined. You could remove all the pads and key work and soak the clarinet in a tank of this oil for several days and then dry for several more days then reassemble the clarinet (a pretty good alternative if you have the time and the money). Or .... you can search for an oil product that is compatible with the original oil treatment of the wood that you can swab through the bore and will prenetrate quickly and deeply and have similar properties as the original treated wood.
Just an aside - this Bulletin Board is an excellent resource and readers can learn a bunch of knowledge and the experience of many long time musicians. (Nate now knows 1000% more about bore oil and oiling bores than 99.9% of all the clarinet players in the world) --- It is a unique treasure that we need to support -- let's top the pledge goal !!!
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-11-05 13:32
A cork grease formula that pleased me until I discovered Alisyn (Aerosp[ace Lubricants Incorporated Synthetic....) cork grease.
This was 1/4 to 1/3 beeswax melted with the rest vaseline. I had 2 jars of different consistency; one for winter and one for summer. I think with the beeswax the vaseline did not penetrate the cork to soften the glue.
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Author: tb0b
Date: 2000-11-05 15:19
that's funny...
boring
bore people
bore oil
don't you think that's funnY???????
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-05 18:43
Yes tbOb, I did catch that one. Interesting the double meaning that words can have. Also, in response to the Doctor's comment "Nate now knows.....", maybe, maybe not, I still don't have the knowledge to make my own bore oil. That's probably for the best, as I wouldn't have the time or resources either. The doctor brings up a very good point which I hadn't thought too much about earlier. The manner in which Buffet oils their instruments is completely different than the way any of the rest of us would do it. The instruments are literally soaked in a huge vat of oil. Still, common sense tells me that a wooden clarinet is somewhat like a fine piece of furniture. If you look at it that way and think of the difference between natural and petrol oils, would you ever spray WD40 on that family hierloom table? As far as natural oils go, I have heard that chamois swabs are good because the oil in the chamois helps oil and polish the bore. It certainly sound reasonable. Also, in regard to the comment about using wax in cork grease, I can see how this would help the cork last longer. I use parafin wax on all new corks that I put on an instrument. It makes the clarinet easier to assemble and disassemble, and protects the cork from grease soaking in to it. Another thing I've thought about, is experimenting with the old string method of tenon "corks". Anyway, they still use this on bassoons. Has anyone tried this before, or know how well it works? I'm in the process of overhauling a couple clarinets, and I have half the notion to give it a try. After all, the srtring ligature thing sounded a bit strange at first, but once I tried it, I found it to be superior to all the other ligs I've tried. A string lig on a crystal mouthpiece doesn't work, though. I also think that Sneezy is by far the best clarinet resource available. If I were to run the thoughts I post here by my friends, they would just give me odd looks. It's a wonderful community you've helped build up here Mark. -- Nate Zeien
PS - On a more humorous note... When I was giving my young cousin clarinet lessons, she told me about her friend who thought the little tube provided in the clarinet case was lip gloss. Needless to say, her friend wound up eating the entire tube and is probably on her third or fourth by now. :-P
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-11-06 02:56
1. Just because a product is natural that does not make it good, Take opium. Take the kidney poison in comfrey. Even the dreaded dioxin occurrs naturally. There are many polymer products used now which do better than their natural predecessors. Synthetic oils are known to be far superior to the 'natural' product now. I reckon cane reeds will be obsolete within 20 years. What about car tyres - there's not much natural rubber in them any more. Are you sure that Buffet does not use Scotch-guard in their timber treatment?
2. If you really want to use a string ligature on your crystal mouthpiece I suggest you stick oone of those (non-natural) mouthpiece patches on the OTHER sideso the string does not slip off.
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-06 03:40
Gordon, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that just because something is "natural" it makes it all good. Think about it, we are talking about wood. It has been proven that the best way to preserve wood is with natural oils. I can see your point in that natural oils can go rancid. Things can be added to the oil to prevent this. If you want more information on that, check out the following thread - http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=28842&t=28842. The Doctor has explained things very well there. Just because something does not work perfectly to begin with, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Also in your comment "Take opium", in a way I already do, but rarely. Remember that codiene is a derivative of opium. Opium has legitimate pharmaceutical uses. At one time it was not very useful, but it was scientifically improved upon. Certainly not everything synthetic is good either. If that were the case, pro musicians would be playing on Vitos with foam pads and using plastic reeds. If as much time and money were put into clarinet research and design as fancy "graphite composite" golf clubs, we'd be ahead of where we are now by leaps and bounds. Such is not the case, and I still play on an old fashioned wooden clarinet. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-11-06 13:04
A very lively debate - good for the soul! Just a couple of comments and then - for once - I can ask some questions.
Most, if not nearly all man-made products, have their origin in nature - petroleum products, oil is a natural product produced from decayed plant material. This is not to say that just because a product is natural that it makes it any better than products of man's ingenuity. We all have benefited from spin-offs from the space program that involve many man-made products. We would not be communicating using the WWW if these products were not conceived. In geological time, our new products are but a microsecond on the scale and we have no way of knowing their final results since the nanosecond that we used them. Some of the results are good and long lasting, others bring about consequences that we could not have anticipated. I am an advocate of using natural (derived from living plant materials) substances for wood and cork preservation, with a little aid from modern chemistry compounds, that have been proven over at least a millisecond (1500 years in our time) to preserve wood and cork and do not alter the purpose of the preservation - the sound of the instrument. This is not to say that some man-made products will not be as good - wait 1499 years then try them out. I do know however that certain products derived from oil will harm wood and cork over a much shorter time frame (several years for wood, 1-2 years for cork). Modern polymers - if they do not clog the natural pores of wood could be wonderful.
Questions - what are we trying to accomplish by using bore oil and cork treatments, and, what are the downsides of using these products on our intruments? Are we trying to waterproof the bore, - and is this desirable, - does the wood need a certain moisture content to give optimum resonance? Does the cork on the tenon merely need to be lubricated or does it need to be lubricated and maintain the ability to compress and expand? Do we need to preserve the wood and cork, or are the factory treatments enough to last the life (how long - 5 yrs, 25 yrs, 100 yrs) of the instrument?
These may seem like very simple questions but they are at the heart of all of these discussions about "oil and grease" and somewhat dictate what choices an individual makes about products that they use on their instruments. I am sure that there is no consensus and therefore the discussions will rage on as they do every few months on the BB.
Meanwhile, golf is even more frustrating than playing the clarinet and we will see more innovations - a la more composites in our own musical game in the future - some better than what we have, some not.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2000-11-06 18:15
Just think - If we all played metal clarinets, we wouldn't be concerned with bore oil. Instead, we'd be discussing metal polish, what kind is best and if and how often it should be used.
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