 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-05 07:12
This is a subject that emerged out of a general review thread of a specific bass clarinet model. Although discussed extensively there it may have been missed by people who were not interested in that thread's title.
The issue is the wide twelfth between bottom E and B over the break. It seems that there are three schools of thought regarding this problem. One: that the E should be more or less in tune, and the B, sharp (but the player can then flatten it); two: that the B should be in tune, but the E, flat, because this is less noticeable in most situations; three: pick a middle position and let the player work on both notes.
It is an interesting debate, but the underlying one is the extent to which such approaches are even possible. I wonder if anyone has investigated (by which I imagine someone must have) whether, if bringing down the pitch of these notes, the actual gap in the twelfth remains constant. In other words, if the B is brought down by (say) five cents, does the E go down by that much, or does it go down less, or more? And is this affected by how the change is made? For instance, if the note is flattened by making the tone hole smaller, does this disproportionately affect the E or the B? What is the position when simply moving the tone hole down, but keeping the same dimensions? Does undercutting have any effect on this?
The thing I would want to avoid is widening an already wide twelfth.
On the other hand, on my instrument it is clear that simply by closing, or almost closing, the speaker hole (register key), the B comes back into tune. The thing that is making it sharp is the open speaker hole. All I would need is a mechanism that made it open just a crack on B, and everything would be fine. On my instrument, that does not seem to prduce any stuffy windiness in that note. Surely a mechanism could be devised that opened it only slightly, whilst letting the same hole open fully for the throat B flat. I suggested this many years ago, but a view was expressed that this would require the kind of tolerances that create hell on a bass clarinet. Things would go out of adjustment too readily.
That's all. It would be interesting to hear people's views.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-05 10:30
Hi Graham,
That's an interesting question. My comments below are more about how the bass clarinet is voiced harmonically.
While I do just wind ensemble and pit work on bass, I play a whole lot more clarion Bs than I do low Es. And so far, I have been able to bend the low E to suffice. Thinking to how the low E is used, I believe that is a 5 1 resolution of a G concert chord which I don't remember as being that common.
If I had a clarion B that was very difficult to tune, I would not be a happy camper. That seems to be a melodic passage note rather than a 5 1 resolution on an E concert chord.
But maybe an orchestra player would feel differently.
HRL
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Author: William
Date: 2009-05-05 14:33
"If I had a clarion B that was very difficult to tune, I would not be a happy camper. That seems to be a melodic passage note rather than a 5 1 resolution on an E concert chord"
Hank--did you really mean a D concert chord or am I hopelessly confused??
In any case, on my Buffet Prestige, I try to go with Grahams third choice and pull my middle joint about the width of a nickel. I have the jumper keys adjusted to tolerate this pull which allows me to lip both notes to be relatively in tune with whomever I play with--band or orchestra. I go with the theory that it is more important to play in tune than be in tune.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-05 15:15
As mainly an orchestral bass clarinet player I can only tell you my own preference, which is to bring the low clarion 'long' B pitch down as close to 'in-tune' as possible (because it's a prominent note and very hard to lip down), and accept some flatness of the low E. That said, there are some mechanical things that can be done to a bass clarinet to reduce the twelths spread, but there's a fair bit of work involved.
And to answer Graham's question, the pitch change from modifying the size and/or location of the lower toneholes to bring down the pitch of the 'long' B (such are the modifications of which I speak) is about half as much as the corresponding pitch change of the low chalumeau E, unfortunately. That is why we're usually forced into some sort of compromise.
On the other hand, with many soprano clarinets this effect works to our advantage, in that the problem is usually an in-tune long B but a very flat low E. By drilling a resonance hole in the bell we can mostly correct the low E while creating only minimal sharpness of the long B. So the knife cuts both ways................
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-05 16:31
Yes, a D concert chord is correct. So much for remembering to transpose. LOL
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-06 03:19
As an orchestra player I can tell you that given the choice, it is much more important to have the break notes as close to in tune with the throat tones as possible. Believe it or not, that is the register that we play in the most that is the most critical. A good example is the duet with the english horn in the second movement of the Franc D minor symphony. There are a few instances that playing the low E a little higher is more critical. In that case, only a few I can remember in all the years I've played in the BSO, I usually push in the neck a bit to raise the lower register and lip down the break notes if I can't adjust the neck back in time.
On my model, an old Selmer 31, or early 33, they don't come with a model number on it, when I press the first RH thumb key down it makes all my break notes flatter without distorting the tone so that's the way I play those notes all the time. With the future models you can't do that, it distorts the pitch and tone far to much. I can't understand why they couldn't keep that ability in the later models. I still had to put cork in the top half of several tone holes to get the break notes in tune. Lowering the break notes, by filling in the top part of the tone holes, did more to lower the break notes than it effected the 12ths below.
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-06 04:00
Ed, is your bass clarinet the type where you have to add the pinky Eb key to play the low right thumb notes? That's why they don't make them this way, because it comes with a bunch of other compromises. Many bass clarinetists prefer the compromises for this with the new ones.
What note is the first right hand thumb key on your clarinet.... low D? If someone REALLY wanted to change it, they can remove the linakges from low D (or whatever key it is that lowers low clarion) and have it the same as your clarinet. But if they later change their mind they can have the linkages re-attached......
Re the E vs. B, I like the way it is on my bass clarinet. The B is slightly sharp, the E is slightly flat. Lowering the B is much easier than raising the E. Actually it's possible to lower the B to in tune without affecting tone. The E is not possible to raise completely, so I wouldn't want it any flatter. I think they made the best compromise.
The posters above seem to know pretty much what they play or what they'll need to play. I can't possibly know and I use both the E and the B all the time. I can't say I play one more than the other, or even that I play one register more than the other. I think a slightly flat E is not a big problem which is why I wouldn't like the E completely in tune and the B even sharper (eventhough it's easier to flatten it than sharpen the E). But completely in tune B would make the E too flat. So I prefer the middle compromise.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-06 07:03
On my bass the use of any RH thumb key at the same time as the E/B keys produces the lower notes. If I disable that, then I have to apply the E flat pinky fingering in all cases of accessing the lowest notes, which severely limits finger pattern options. I can use these lower keys to flatten the C above the break, but that C does not need flattening, whereas the B does. Fortunately my slightly sharp C sharp is brought into tune by holding down the B key, and produces a pleasantly mellow sound that way.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2009-05-06 20:25
How about setting up the instrument so that the low E is high enough to be lipped up to pitch, and then changing the size of the lower register hole to bring down the pitch of the mid-line B? It would also affect the C, C#, D and D# just above the mid-line B, but then at least C and C# are also slightly high on some bass clarinets, so it might actually improve those notes as well. I guess you would have to be careful not to put throat Bb out of tune.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-07 01:19
DS, where does the floor peg go on the wooden bell? Do you use wood or metal screws since the bracket can't be soldered? LOL
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-07 02:55
Jeez, Dr. Hank, why do you always have to ask the tough questions? Well, in fact, when one owns a wooden bell (and no doubt a Buffet 1193 or Selmer 67 to go along with it), one doesn't need a peg at all, because one's minions (aka Stage Crew or Roadies) will carefully set a royal purple cushion of just the right thickness under the instrument.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-07 03:04
David said, of course a $500+ wooden bell will solve all your bass clarinet intonation problems. I think that's wish full thinking, they cost a whole lot more then $500, well over $2000. A Bb clarinet Backun bell costs $500. First of all a wooden bell will not fix those problems. It might or might not change some things but it is not going to make the low E sharper and the B break flatter. It could effect several notes in both registers, and it will be somewhat different on every horn.
Let's not forget, even though we all want perfect intonation, which we can only hope for, the lower register is much more forgiving than the middle register.
To answer clarinibass, yes I have to keep the Eb key down to play the lower notes, something that has never been a problem for me at all. My model has only five keys for the right hand pinky. It didn't come with an alternate D in the left hand so I had one built on so I could trill a low C to D about 40 years ago, my horn is 43 years old. I've never had to use that left hand D in all the years I've been playing bass in the BSO, but it's there if I need it. I have found that many of the newer bass clarinet I've tried have somewhat solved this intonation problem but it is not a sure thing on all models or even consistent within a certain model. ESP
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-05-07 03:10
One can check an old Clark Fobes site which, as I recall, said that the low register can be raised in pitch by undercutting the proper tone hole without changing the corresponding clarion register note. This is much easier on soprano clarinets than bass clarinets because of the smaller amount of wood to be removed.
This was also used by Moennig to raise the flat low register notes in the left hand without affecting the upper register.
Good Wishes to Hank!!!!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-07 04:24
>> Do you use wood or metal screws since the bracket can't be soldered? <<
I actually have a wood peg  It was pretty easy to make. I don't use it though.
>> yes I have to keep the Eb key down to play the lower notes, something that has never been a problem for me at all. <<
Probably not, but for someone who has tried the newer version or maybe they are even used to it, having to press the right hand pinky for all low notes might be annoying. The advantage of lowering the clarion might seem insignificant to some players.
The newer way makes it much easier to jump to low notes (which I do all the time). When you do this several times in a row having to the use the pinky too is much less comfortable (but OTOH you need the notes to respond reliably with just one finger, even for the lowest note).
It also helps to have a right hand low D which is much more comfortable than having to use the thumb all the time for this note. It is also more comfortable than a left pinky low D key (at least for me, I'm right handed) and that's even for the newer bass clarinets which have a much better linakge for the left low D (some older instruments had especially poor feel for this key). I actually have the instrument with three low D keys and I use the right pinky one the most.
I remember I played a piece once where I used all three D keys, and I'm not completely sure it would have been possible with a bass clarinet with the old mechanism. The only one I don't use often is the left one but still use it sometimes. I think it's a bit like a tool that once you buy you suddenly find a lot of things to do with it.
With my instrument, even if it didn't have the newer linkages I would probably not bother using the low notes for B since intonation is not really a problem.
Just showing the advantages/disadvantages of both versions.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-07 07:06
A problem with using the lower note keys to flatten the B is that it is essentially a bodge. On a long note it would be useful, and that is the situation of course where a sharp note is most noticeable. But sharp notes can be noticeable in faster passages, and having to put down a seemingly unrelated finger or thumb in such a passage to obtain a well tuned note is not what I would regard as an elegant solution.
Ebonite refers to changing the size of the register key hole, rather than changing the clearance of the key. But as he implies, it is difficult to see how this would leave the throat b flat intact. That is already a bad note. Surely someone can devise a reliable mechanism for having that hole opened with a minimal clearance. The effect of this on the tuning of the B is profound, and it does not disrupt the next few notes up. As long as the key then opened fully for the B flat we would be in business. Of course, this is easy to create. I made the adjustments to an old bass I used to use and it dealt with that problem. But the issue would be tolerances. Such an adjustment is so finicky it could go out of adjustment too easily. What is needed is a robust device that does the same. That would be the next great clarinet patent. Or go for a more complex mechanism altogether which opened a separate B flat hole, so the register hole could be separate and then small enough not to compromise intonation. But this must have been thought of and rejected as too difficult.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-05-07 13:39
Check with Steven Fox. He has a solution. (mechanism)
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-05-12 21:28
I just had a bad tuning experience with these two notes today.
I'm currently playing a Buffet 1180 while I have my Malerne 4 Star fixed up. As you probably know the low Eb is on the body.
In the arrangement of Wicked that our band is playing, the tubas, bass trombone, and low woodwinds have the same concert D. The tuning between the two basses and the bari is horrible. The bari was a little sharp and both basses were very flat. I have to pull back a few dynamic markings to bring it better in tune.
Later on we have a concert Db. It's sharp! I pull out the bell for that.
- Martin
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-13 03:48
Ed, I'm pretty sure you realize I was kidding about the wooden bell. Sometimes my irony/sarcasm doesn't come across well in writing. Of course a wooden bell doesn't really solve anything, other than look extremely cool and possibly make the bottom few notes in each register sound a bit nicer. I figured that my $500 number was on the low side, but holy cow, two grand for a BELL?? I can acquire and fix up two perfectly good COMPLETE BASS CLARINETS for that amount of money. But heck, I know, it's about quality, not quantity.............
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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