 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-03-08 21:18
Hello CBB-ers!
I’m new to this forum, and this is my first post; I want to discuss BC prices, and here goes:
I’ve been checking out prices on the highest regarded Böhm-BC’s; the Henri-Selmer Privilège and the Buffet Crampon Prestige, and I found out that the equivalent H.S. BC (to low C) costs around 25% more than the B.C. BC.
I understand the H.S. instrument is a very good one, but isn’t the B.C. a very good instrument too?
So: Is the Selmer really 25% better than the Buffet?
Many thanks in advance,
Aero145 =)
PS: Prices from Musikhaus Walter Grimm, CH
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-08 22:56
The Selmer is more expensive because it's a Selmer - you pay for the name.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tilly
Date: 2009-03-08 23:48
The Buffet Prestige and Selmer Privilege are comparable and it's just a matter of personal preference. The difference in price may have something to do with your location. I just purchased a Privilege a couple of years ago from a company that sold both Selmer and Buffet and the Selmer was only slightly more than the Buffet -- not 25% more! The Privilege has a number of changes and improvements over previous Selmer models (I had an M33) and that could also account for the increase in price.
I'm happy with the Privilege but strongly suggest trying as many as possible. I was able to try three but they were all very different. The process took several months but it was worth it!
Good luck!
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-03-09 00:15
Howarth of London list the Buffet Prestige bass at £6100 and the Selmer Privilege bass at £8200. That counts for almost 26% price difference.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-03-09 00:19
FWIW, At WW/BW the Selmer is $9,499.00, the Buffet is $9,025.00.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-09 00:25
I am a Selmer bass clarinet performing artist. I am going to ask about this too see if I can get an answer as to why the Selmer is so much more than the Buffet in London and Germany and only a little bit more here in the USA. I'll post my answer, if I get one. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-03-09 00:41
Ed I've also seen in the USA that the Buffet RC is slightly more expensive than the R-13 and the Festival which is Prestige is about 3200$ but the R-13 Prestige is about 1500$ more expensive. In England R-13 Prestige,RC Prestige,Festival and R-13 Vintage all list at the same price at least at Howarth of London and Myatt.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-03-09 00:50
The Selmer Privilege is a comparatively new model, whereas the Buffet Prestige has been around for maybe 20 years.
Low-C bass clarinets are slow-selling items, so the recent cost of designing and tooling has to be recovered over a small number of instruments, designed and built at a time when design and manufacturing costs have risen steeply.
I don't think Buffet ever expects to recover the cost of creating its contra, which accounts for the astronomical price.
Still, that doesn't explain the differing prices in the USA and England. I'll be interested in what Ed finds out.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-09 12:45
The current version of the Buffet Prestige has only been around since 1998-1999 which was a complete redesign on the previous model.
They really went to town on it by changing the keywork and it has perhaps the best balanced keywork of any low C basses I've tried. Initially I wasn't planning on ever buying Buffet, but the new keywork won me over.
Admittedly Selmers do have 'the sound', but the keywork on the last model (before the Privilege) was hard work, so I went with the Buffet for the ease of playability in the keywork department.
However 'gutless' some people may find the Buffet, I'm more than happy with the sound I can get from mine and also the tuning.
In the UK, the Buffet bass is the least expensive, the Yamaha is next, then the Leblanc and finally the Selmer being the most expensive out of the four biggies.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-03-09 12:46
Thanks for the replies, folks! =)
I understand that Selmer over a Buffet and vice-versa is a personal preference - but nevertheless, I find it odd that either isn’t at least better in some ways than the other.
Those who have chosen one over the other, could you be so kind to elaborate why?
Best regards and thanks,
Aero145
PS: As we’re discussing those clarinets, could anyone tell me the note layout of the lower notes. IIRC, the Privilège is like this:
Right pinky: E♭ under, D over
Right thumb: C under, D♭ over; extra E♭ over D♭
Left pinky: D
Am I right about the Privilège? How is it on the Prestige?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2009-03-09 12:54
Buffet Prestige:
Right pinky: Eb under, D over
Thumb: D, Db, C in descending order. The D is actually a bit cumbersome for me personally.
Left pinky: D (auxiliary Ab as well...I presume same on Privilege)
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-09 13:41
>> I find it odd that either isn’t at least better in some ways than the other. <<
But there are better things about each. Each has IMO advantages and disadvantages in design that are objective. To be honest, both have many things that could have been done better in that department.....
Generally speaking I prefer the Buffet mechanical design overall, some examples: I prefer the Buffet register mechanism, and some of the linakges. For some notes, it allows slightly better balance of the springs. Another example is the linkage between G/D key and the arm that connects to the register mech. But the Selmer has a few advantages also, they have to do with specific design of some keys and linkages and actually it's pretty complicated to get into on this forum.
As far as the build quality, after playing and examining thoroughly several of each (many even), I found problems with both. All sorts of problems varying from a too thick tenon cork to a bunch of mechanical problems making the instrument not work like it should. To be fair, on average both were probably the same, but one relatively new Selmer that I examined had very serious problems that I would never expect from an instrument like this.
Another major difference is the compormise choice of the neck register vent. In short it is much bigger for the Selmer which has advantages and disadvantages. The Buffet vent can be enlarged, and I experimented with that a lot. You can find the most updated version of the article here Buffet register tube article or translated to English with Google Language Tool here (not a great translation but maybe it is ok?) Buffet register tube article translated
You can use Google Language Tool to translate to German if that is better.
Other differences are personal choices like others have said.
The low notes layout is the same excpet the top right thumb key is D for Buffet and Eb for Selmer. Also the right thumb keys have a very different feel between both instruments. Also the left pinky keys feel a little different, and also the entire instrument (like the right hand stack, especially the hinges area, etc).
Another difference is the Selmer has articulated C#/G# key and the Buffet doesn't. However the Buffet has a two-part key so it is not especially difficult to add articulated key if you want. I mean not diffucult comapred with a one-part key design, it is still some work and probably not cheap. I prefer to not have articualted C#/G# because I can use a few more fingerings that are impossible with articulated key.
They also play differently and you really want to choose after trying if possible. I chose one over the other, but I don't necessarily think my choice is "better", I just prefer it.
Post Edited (2009-03-09 13:55)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-09 14:18
I'm waiting for an answer from a Selmer rep, I hope I get one, it's interesting. As far as I remember Selmer basses have always been more expensive then the Buffets. I still use my Selmer low C bass that I bought back in the mid 60s, I believe it is a model 31 but may be 33, there's no number on it. It didn't have a left hand low D so I had one built on years ago, never have had to use it though. I was concerned about trilling from a low C to D because both are on the thumb RH separated by the Db but never had to do that, yet. I've had so many small things done to my Selmer over the years that I've never found one that plays as well or as in tune. I've always found the Buffets stuffy on the break notes though since they put the hole in the bell that improved that considerably. also helped with the pitch. A year or two before they did that to their bells I demonstrated the difference between my old Selmer and the then new Buffet to Fran. Kloc, Buffets US rep at Vince Marnelli's shop and a year or two later they came out with that improvement to their bell, which does relieve that problem considerably. (I never got credit for that, I guess because I play the Selmer). I think I should consider suing though I only demonstrated the difference, I didn't actually come up with the solution. Bye! ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-09 15:30
I compared a Selmer 37 to a Prestige 1193-2 a few years ago and I found the Selmer to be 17.2% better -- not quite 25%, but enough that it would be my choice if I could afford either (which I can't).
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-09 15:47
The Selmer is said to have the "big sound", but the pianist from our last BJSO Symphony Orchestra concert commented on how nice my Buffet 1193-2 sounded and that it "made his feet rumble." Part of that could be my mouthpiece/reed set-up: Grabner CX_BS, Legere #3, Winslow ligature. Bottom line FWIW--I like my Buffet for how nicely it plays....simple as that.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-03-09 16:06
Both can be fine instruments, it is a matter of preference. I have not played the newest Selmer. I have the predecessor, the 37. I had some work done to balance the action and tension and it is a fine instrument.
If you can play both and compare, it would be the best option, but you really can't go wrong with either.
Post Edited (2009-03-09 18:52)
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-03-09 18:44
It is noticeable that the difference between those two instruments is the person using it. =P
Thank you for your time guys - but this didn’t help me at all deciding which is the better instrument. Not your fault, just a fact! =D
All the best,
Aero145
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-10 20:49
Price answer for Selmer vs Buffets. Here is the answer I received from my source from the Selmer Co. Remember, Selmer also makes and sells the Leblancs.
Of the big 4 makers (Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha and Buffet), I’m aware of only two that are taken seriously by pro players . . . the Buffet 1193 and Selmer Paris 67. Based on that, I won’t even include the Yamaha and Leblanc in the conversation.
At the current street pricing in the US (Buffet 1193 @ $9025 and Selmer 67 @ $9499), there is only a 5% difference in price . . . not 26%. We at Conn-Selmer can only speak to the US pricing as Selmer Paris has separate distributors in different parts of the world.
Buffet has instituted a Minimum Sell Price that dealers must adhere to while the Selmer Paris pricing in the US represents a Minimum Advertised Price. The Selmer dealer is allowed to sell the clarinet for whatever he or she thinks best. ESP
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-10 21:24
Interesting - why don't Buffet do that in the US?
At least with Selmer's strategy there's more room for negotiation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-11 04:54
Re Ed's answer:
One correction is that Selmer (Paris) doesn't actually make the Leblanc clarinets. Leblanc is owned by Conn-Selmer, an American (AFAIK) company that is seperate from Selmer Paris, but they are allowed to use the Selmer name, and they are the distributer for Selmer Paris in USA (or entire north America maybe). Conn-Selmer makes the Leblanc models.
Also, I think the MSP is only for some countries, or if not it is different in different countries. For example the price for the Buffet bass clarinet (without VAT/tax in either country) is less in UK than USA right now. During all that time recently that Buffet clarinet prices raised very significantly in USA the prices remained pretty much the same here (for example for R13).
So Ed's reply is probably referring to USA both for Conn-Selmer and Buffet.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-03-11 13:25
I should ask Buffet why they have different prices on their Prestige(R-13,RC,Festival and Vintage) in USA but one price in UK. I mean is the R-13 Prestige around 5000$ while the Festival is around 3200$ just because the R-13 is more popular ?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-12 12:29
Yes clarinbass, I didn't actually mean that Selmer made Leblanc only that it is now one big company. Selmer - Conn owns Leblanc as well as many other smaller name brands. What I stated about pricing was a quote from a Selmer rep. ESP
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Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2009-03-29 04:19
Hello,
I just recently bought a Selmer low C bass clarinet as a bass clarinet major at USF. I at first tried a Buffet that would have been around 8500 or so. I managed to get the selmer for 6000. It was brand new. With a little haggling I find the selmer to be much cheaper. It seemed the dealer was more than willing to drop the price, whereas on the Buffet he continually told me he couldn't due to minimum sale price.
I also prefer the selmer in almost every way to the buffet.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-03-29 07:28
Today I played my new Buffet Prestige BC for the first time in a pretty good clarinet group, 6 players, and I was astounded at how it aids and abets musical playing. Even the PP passages were focussed and clear. In that setting, it is not very necessary to really play loud but it is capable of very loud playing with a focussed sound. The resonance of that sound is why many like it. It just is very easy to make music with it.
On the minus side, it is quite heavy and I am amazed that all that mechanism works so well. One can play a low C with only one key, closing seven pads!
With the peg off the floor, the sound seems a little brighter, which is kind of like the cello situation with a floor end pin. Anyhow, it's great!!
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-04-01 21:05
Wes wrote:
>Low-C bass clarinets are slow-selling items, so the recent cost of designing and tooling has to be recovered over a small number of instruments, designed and built at a time when design and manufacturing costs have risen steeply.
That's only a problem because they choose to make it one. All they need do is convert their entire BC production to low-C models and the cost will plummet. Most of us who play the BC would love to have one but are limited because of the much higher price, so it's not as if there's no demand. There's absolutely no disadvantage to having the extra range and it really ought to become the standard design.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-04-01 22:33
There IS a disadvantage of the extra range of a low-C bass, if one is not terribly tall: its length. Even at 5'8" I'm close to needing to sit on a phone book or cushion to play most of these instruments; for many students and particularly females the extra length of a low-C instrument could be quite an annoyance. Unless of course one puts the extra length on a curved extension (a la 'paperclip' contra) as I've done with mine. In any case, there is substantial extra complexity with the low-C bass, added to an instrument that's already relatively complex and delicate -- so for school use, I would argue strongly against making low Cs standard. I'd bet most school band directors would agree with me on that.
And finally, as I've said before, even nowadays one can play more than 95% of the concert band and orchestral repertoire without the extra notes of the low-C bass, though I'll admit we're seeing the extra range being called for more and more.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2009-04-02 01:08
There are some dealers, even here in Canada, that have Prestige Low C basses that were acquired before the "Minimum sales price" was installed. These instruments are still able to be sold at a lower price (I saw one for ~7,000 USD).
Unfortunately, they are difficult to find and are more likely to be "the runt of the litter" (for lack of a better way to put it).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-02 02:48
"And finally, as I've said before, even nowadays one can play more than 95% of the concert band and orchestral repertoire without the extra notes of the low-C bass, though I'll admit we're seeing the extra range being called for more and more."
And with a low C bass, you can at least drop some notes down an 8ve when you feel like it when doing pit work or especially in concert band stuff when the sole tuba player isn't pulling their weight and there's no bassoon or bari player.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: nahoj
Date: 2009-04-02 19:47
Low C is also very handy for playing bassoon or cello parts. Which is not uncommon as there are usually not enough bassoon or other bass instrument players over here in amateur orchestra's (no wonder when music schools don't have/rent or teach tuba, contrabassoon, bass clarinet,... just ventilating some frustration here).
Plus adding bassoon or cello works opens the choice in solo literature immensely.
And last but not least, those low notes are simply very cool to play. :-) They make the bass clarinet a true bass instrument -- without them I'd call it a 'tenor clarinet'! :-p
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