 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-07-19 21:22
Quick thought. I'm 24, recently auditioned for Masters and my age came up as a concern. I'd like to 'make it' in the music profession but when is one considered too old?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-19 21:56
24 is hardly too old. Of course it depends on how good you are at your age. If you’ve been playing for 10-12 years and still have major playing problems then perhaps your age is an issue because in most cases a 24 year old is as good as they’re going to get. I’m not talking about not being able to improve and still learn, I mean overall. So the big question is how good are you now? ESP www.peaody.jhu.edu/457
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: FDF
Date: 2008-07-19 23:29
Two questions here. When is one is considered too old, and when is one too old? The answer is between those considering your age and ability and those who have progressed to their limits. Don't worry about what others think, keep playing until you satisfied.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-07-19 23:39
I started my Masters at 24 and have just finished it at 26 having studied on a part-time basis. I was the same age as most of the people on the course and most of us followed straight on from undergraduate studies (which considering most UK conservatoires run four year courses, you can't be much younger than 22 when you start a Masters) although I did a postgrad diploma before the masters as well.
It's been assumed that your age was discussed for being too old, could it in fact be the other way? I would have struggled with the Masters course any earlier I think, aesthetics and philosophy make my head hurt.
In terms of the playing side...yes you get the odd person who plays with major orchestras in their very early 20s while still at college, and it's important to remind yourself that these people are the exceptions. Speaking as part of a group of very talented players at around your age Morrigan - most of us are still well away from 'making it' in the grand scheme of things, but are well on the way and have plenty of time ahead. You're not too old - to make it, or to start a Masters. I'm intrigued as to which institution raised this concern.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: FDF
Date: 2008-07-20 01:41
Great that someone has the answers. Now, everybody can go home.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-07-20 02:07
FDF, There really is no way to know based on age.......
I had a student who started Clarinet at age 18 and by 28 was teaching as the Clarinet Professor at West Chester Univ.
I was (jokingly) giving a concrete answer to something which is very not concrete.
Hope you got the intended humor
24 is not old whatsoever. Just an undergrad take till about 22 so that's just 2 years off...
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-07-20 02:12)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-20 05:24
Depends on the country too I think. Here, although some start first degree younger, it is most common to start at about 21 or 22 years old (for men, slightly different for most women). I started first degree when I was about 19 and I was one of the youngest in my class, with most being around 22, and some close to their 30s, with a few older than that. So it is not very common for people to start masters degree as young as 24.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-07-20 09:07
Okay so should I be worried if I started a Masters two years from now (at age 27-ish) and would be around 29 by the time I finished? My aim, in a Masters degree, would be to land a gig towards the end or not long after finishing.
I'm about this good (if not worse now, haven't played much in the past few months) myspace.com/timieraci
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-07-20 10:47
If you haven't played much in the past few months, you may want to re evaluate just how much do you really want it.
If you don't want it badly enough to basically dedicate your every breath to it, than it may never happen.
Its that competitive.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-07-20 12:24
Yeah, I hear ya. But earning enough money to actually get by is something I consider more important than clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-07-20 12:50
Hi,
As they say though "don't give up your day gig!"In my case, I knew in HS that while I was a very good player, I did not have the "stick-to-it-ness" required to be a symphony player. It was just not in my makeup to spend hours and hours practicing with just a slim hope of "making it."
Instead, I turned to music education and became a HS band director. After 16 successful years, I moved to college teaching in a whole different field but I still play a lot for a 70 year old. I play many shows, am a member in several collegiate/community wind ensembles (I like university/college directors a lot), and still play jazz gigs (combo and big band).
Music has been one of the most important things in my life. I was just fortunate enough to get a good handle on things while still a developing players. Being a student at Interlochen in the early 1950s showed me that I'd never be a Roger Bobo, Gene Zorro, or Larry Combs who were all there at the same time.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: grifffinity
Date: 2008-07-20 15:08
You never know where life will take you - especially in today's world where more and more adults well past the perceived "normal" college age are going back to school to earn Master's and Doctorate degrees. In fact, I know several clarinetists in their mid to late 20's who recently went to major conservatories/Music Schools in the US (Juilliard, NEC & Rice) for their Master's. 25, 26 & 28 respectively when they were accepted to these schools.
Is this the norm for these schools? Probably not - but at the same time it is not unheard of.
I do agree with David B. though - at this age, you must completely dedicate your life to this pursuit, because it is highly competitive.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: FDF
Date: 2008-07-21 23:37
David,
I know you answered the question with a sense of humor, as was my response, and I appreciate what you said. My only concern was that clarinetist at any age don't give up playing for any reason, as long as they enjoy what they are doing. And who knows, maybe someone will recognize the great unknown talent that exists at any age.
Thanks,
FDF
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-07-22 01:16
There are also different definitions of "making it." Many people are very quick to define "getting an orchestral gig that can pay all the bills" as a way of making it as a performing musician.
There's also the option of teaching, possibly at the university level.
Other than that, though, there are many, many possibilities. The problem is that none of them are presented to you. You can't apply for them, audition for them. In college, I discovered that there is no clean-cut position that exists for what I want to do musically.
Realizing that I audition badly and, more importantly, WHY I audition badly, brought me to my reality check, and pointed me in the direction of what and how I play well. Sitting through one Bruckner Symphony too many (i.e. one Bruckner Symphony) made me realize that, even if I were at the level of old-school dedication to get a mainstream orchestral gig, it's not what I want to do.
Nobody is hiring individual performers for the types of gigs I'm looking for, but I'm pretty confident that people would indeed hire such ensembles for pretty decent gigs. Nobody else is starting the ensembles, so it's up to me to do it. Which I'm starting on in the coming weeks...
...while I continue at my day job, for the time being. If the day job involved teaching at a university, this would all be quite a bit easier. Which is a possibility down the road, if I decide to give grad school apps another go.
In essence, what I've done a very poor job of explaining is that there are ways of making it as a musician that do not involve getting hired by an orchestra. In performing, listening, and talking to people, I've seen an overwhelmingly positive response to unconventional approaches to classical-world music. It's just a bit out of our comfort zone of "have job, get steady paycheck", so many of us don't even consider the possibilities.
Yes, as you get older, the possibilities for fiercely competitive big orchestral jobs may indeed begin to dry up. Possibilities for a versatile musician who is willing to take some risks and present new ideas (or even old ideas in a fresh manner), I think, do not.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2008-07-22 04:48
Alex really hits it on the head. There are all kinds of possilbities out there, and music school very unfortunately does little to prepare you for them--particularly if you're on the orchestral track.
I knew in college that I couldn't summon up the singlemindedness to go that way, and I don't think I'd want it anyway. Most of what keeps me alive playing and teaching is a diversity of interests and pursuits.
Durability is another thing. I'm playing and teaching today in a town where plenty of qualified colleagues have burnt out and quit. I think that the dirty little secret of many a successful musician is that you have to have both feet solidly on the ground, and keep picking yourself up when you fall.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-22 04:53
Alex (EEBaum), I have to tell you... ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif)
>> Other than that, though, there are many, many possibilities.
>> The problem is that none of them are presented to you. You
>> can't apply for them, audition for them. In college, I discovered
>> that there is no clean-cut position that exists for what I want
>> to do musically.
It's the basic philosophy of fitting yourself into a place or fitting a place into yourself, which is usually based on each person's character, and exists in many things in life, not only music. I completely agree with you that many just don't realize the possibilities, unless they somehow think about them by themselves.
During university is when I realized what I want to do in music, but if I went to the classical department just a year earlier (which I almost did, until a couple of weeks before the year started I suddenly decided not to) I would probably not find what I want to do in music, or it would take much longer. Before I knew, what I was doing was still fun since I was playing clarinet, but it always just felt like this wasn't "it".
Post Edited (2008-07-22 05:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-07-25 00:38
Here's my take on this, FWIW... The only thing that matters is how well you can learn to play the instrument. And in that, you are only limited by your capacity to learn/improve. I can say from experience (both in clarinet playing and other fields) that that *doesn't* go away after age 21! (I'm 31, by the way).
But you don't have to simply take my word for it. Take surgeons, for instance. (and I know we have some on the board here, so feel free to agree/disagree with me--I'm a patent lawyer, not a doctor. I'm just using this as an example, because the parallels between musical performance and surgery seem more obvious to me than with law.) To become a surgeon (in the U.S. anyway), you generally go through 4 years of college, then 4 years of medical school, then about 7 years of surgical residency training. It takes even longer if you want to do some kind of specialty, like neurosurgery. If you're going to be a surgeon, you don't even start the "surgical" part of your training until you've already gone through 8 years of post-secondary school. That means that your typical surgeon-in-training is about 25 when they start their residency and in their 30s when they finish. As I see it, if you can *start* learning to do brain surgery at age 25, then there is no reason to think that 24 is too old to do anything!
Besides, it's not like Ricardo Morales' career has slumped off now that he's in his 30s....
Post Edited (2008-07-25 16:40)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-07-25 01:09
I think age is a real issue for those who think it is...Marcellus never got a degree and played flawlessly for years. It seems the ideal of a piece of paper has very little influence over how you actually sound...that being said most universities do very well by offering degrees to music students who are not serious about later become performers. Alot of change in what a performance degree means should be considering what it gets you as a player and where you see yourself.
As to age I consider age a non issue..Alfred Prinz in Vienna Phil and Rudolf Jettl were really old in the recordings I have heard and sounded way better than most of the young hot players that people who have told me were out there.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2008-07-25 13:03
Morrigan,
24 is not too old for anything. But it is old enough to have an inner voice that tells you what is good for you.
Sarah
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2008-07-25 13:16
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> 30 is pushing it big time if you don't have a gig by then.
>
> 35 is over the hill......
>
> 40 is starting a new career
>
> 50 is wondering if it will ever happen
>
> 60 is it didn't and won't 
David,
I have a good friend here in Israel - his name is Miguel Miman. He was born in Argentina and played the piano. When he was 20 he came to Israel and couldn't make his living as a musician and found some other job. When he retired (at 65) he decided to try again and started to practice the piano and write music. I met him when he was 85 (he should be 88 now) , he had a nice career as a Tango composer and playes the piano at the Dan Hotel in Tel Aviv every Monday. His grandnson is a clarinet student at Juilliard.
sarah
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: claritoot26
Date: 2008-07-25 13:30
I didn't even begin my bachelor's degree in music until I was 31. Did the bachelor's and masters in 4 years, now considering going back for the doctorate, but I'd be 37 when I start. I might rethink that, not sure. Anyway, 24 is certainly not too old if you know it's what you want to do. I sometimes wish I had started that young.
Lori
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-07-25 16:20
Isn't there a thing nowadays where the age 40 is like the old 30 and so on and so forth. Don't get me wrong but don't conductors improve with age? On that note I have yet to see that..but I did find Eugen Jochum to be excellent and he must have been 80 back in the mid 1980s when I played for him. So what is this about...degrees can be had at any age..however talent and ability are different things.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2008-07-26 21:35
I think that the big issue in making it at age 30+ is the ability/willingness to put your life on hold.
One reason that we have such an oversupply of quality clarinet graduates is that most have gone to college when no family and minimal employment. The main reason for my survival is that I'm a single guy who's addicted to music. Even so, I still have midlife responsibilties and needs that would make in impossible to compete in that atmosphere.
And we've already talked before about how almost no one makes it as a clarinet player alone. If I didn't play sax & flute, teach lessons, and direct church music, I would not be hanging on.
It seems to me that the best option for a strong clarinetist at or below his/her mid 30's would be to try and join a service band.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
