 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-08-15 17:37
The Acker Bilk stuff got me going ---- It's important to remember that among early (N.O.) jazz musicians, pianists and clarinetists tended to be the best trained, so clarinet technique sort of peaked in jazz before other horns. That's why the New Orleans (and Chicago) clarinetists are worth studying, and why their later British counterparts can teach us much. And foget about style --- they knew, and played, THE ROLE, of the clarinet in a contrapuntal, improvised ensemble, which some believe (me included) to be the highest achievement in (traditional) jazz.
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Author: larry
Date: 2000-08-15 18:16
Bob,
Does the term "moldy fig" mean anything to you?
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-08-15 20:10
Hi larry --- does it ever, except the spelling used to be "mouldye figge" or something just as silly. I don't know your age, but when I was a kid, that was the ultimate put down. There was such a splt in jazz in the '40's that it really got ugly. Happily, that's past, as even the "modernists" seem to be looking to the past for unexplored ideas --- and there are plenty of them. You brought back a few memories. larry wrote:-------------------------------Bob,Does the term "moldy fig" mean anything to you?
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-08-16 08:18
Where does Larry Shields fit into this tradition? I can't hear any link between his style and Bilk's. Come to think of it I can't hear any link between Dodds and Bilk.
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-08-16 13:20
Hi Graham -- the connection is tenuous, but boils down to Larry Shields and Johnny Dodds being involved in (essentially) collective improvisation, with the clarinet playing the same roll as the rest of the N.O. clarinet players. Their individual styles differed a lot, but their roles were similar. The great thing about them all is that, within that context, each had a very personal playing style and sound, a source of endless fascination, I think. In fact, until Benny Goodman's influence homogenized jazz clarinet playing, most clarinetists in jazz were instantly indentifiable by the individuality of their sound. Thanks for the good point! Graham Elliott wrote:-------------------------------Where does Larry Shields fit into this tradition? I can't hear any link between his style and Bilk's. Come to think of it I can't hear any link between Dodds and Bilk.
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Author: larry
Date: 2000-08-16 14:50
Bob - I appreciated your comments about the moldy fig (mouldy figge) appelation. I wasn't around during those days (born in 1961), but the whole argument between traditionalists and modernists seems to have been mostly concocted by critics,producers and publicists (eg: Leonard Feather, Barry Ulanov, et al), not musicians themselves, although some were inevitably drawn into it.
My own taste ranges from King Oliver to Thelonius Monk and beyond, with everything else in between, butressed by the great pillars of Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker. After all, the collective improvisation of Oliver's Creole Jazz Band has much in common with Charlie Mingus and Eric Dolphy. Bottom line: don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-08-16 15:00
Yeah, Larry! Beautifully stated. Big ears is what it's all about, and you've certainly got 'em! I'd love to hear your musice -- anything on record. All the best.larry wrote:-------------------------------Bob - I appreciated your comments about the moldy fig (mouldy figge) appelation. I wasn't around during those days (born in 1961), but the whole argument between traditionalists and modernists seems to have been mostly concocted by critics,producers and publicists (eg: Leonard Feather, Barry Ulanov, et al), not musicians themselves, although some were inevitably drawn into it.My own taste ranges from King Oliver to Thelonius Monk and beyond, with everything else in between, butressed by the great pillars of Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker. After all, the collective improvisation of Oliver's Creole Jazz Band has much in common with Charlie Mingus and Eric Dolphy. Bottom line: don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
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Author: Joe Spencer
Date: 2000-08-17 14:53
This is a topic I have really enjoyed, as well as related earlier topic on favorite clarinetists. I began listening to jazz in the mid-60's when the fig/modern rift was fading, but just when Ornette Coleman/Ayler/Dolphy were causing a similar rift among moderninsts. Saturdays were spent at a great old haunt --the Jazz Record Center on W 47th Street in NYC. Remember the days when record stores played records before you committed to buy them. The guys who ran the Center (Indian Joe and Jay Vaughan) had to trade plays between the figs (me) and the free jazz guys. A lot of good sprited taunting back and forth. Sadly, with the ability to order CD's online, and clubs so expensinve, there is a lot less opportunity to sit around and listen and argue with others.
Oddly enough, thirty yers later--thanks to my son--I find myself listening to a lot of Dolphy, Ayler, Shepp, etc. and really enjoying it.
In terms of clarinetists: Two whom I find well worth a listen are:
1. Walt Serreth --he plays Albert system and soprano with the Golden Eagle JB in southern CA. Very rich, reedy sound. Records and one CD (on Stomp Off Records) hard to get.
2. Bob Helm, who played in the Lu Watters and Turk Murphy Bands in SF (on a lot of CD's and records with these bands). Bob is 86 and still going strong. Remarkably, Bob has recorded professionally in every decade from the 30's through the 90's and may still have a 2000 session issued. Has always been accused of playing flat (true to some extent), but is also one of the most inventive, creative players ever. Really plays a long, flowing, true melodic variation behind the lead trumpet/cornet.
Sorry for the long note.
Joe Spencer
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Author: Bob Sparkman
Date: 2000-08-17 18:49
Hi Joe - sure, I remember the Jazz Rcord Center - spent many a lunch "hour" there. Great store, great scene. I loved those Lu Watters records, but kind of favored the very first ones with Ellis Horn on clarinet - bit mellower than Helm. I was in Sacramento with a NY band in '96 and heard Bob Helm quite a bit, but he was playing alto sax, no clarinet - quite nice. Admire your big ears - I'm still having trouble catching up with the boppers, just proving that music is a lifelong process of learning, and its joy.Joe Spencer wrote:-------------------------------This is a topic I have really enjoyed, as well as related earlier topic on favorite clarinetists. I began listening to jazz in the mid-60's when the fig/modern rift was fading, but just when Ornette Coleman/Ayler/Dolphy were causing a similar rift among moderninsts. Saturdays were spent at a great old haunt --the Jazz Record Center on W 47th Street in NYC. Remember the days when record stores played records before you committed to buy them. The guys who ran the Center (Indian Joe and Jay Vaughan) had to trade plays between the figs (me) and the free jazz guys. A lot of good sprited taunting back and forth. Sadly, with the ability to order CD's online, and clubs so expensinve, there is a lot less opportunity to sit around and listen and argue with others. Oddly enough, thirty yers later--thanks to my son--I find myself listening to a lot of Dolphy, Ayler, Shepp, etc. and really enjoying it.In terms of clarinetists: Two whom I find well worth a listen are:1. Walt Serreth --he plays Albert system and soprano with the Golden Eagle JB in southern CA. Very rich, reedy sound. Records and one CD (on Stomp Off Records) hard to get.2. Bob Helm, who played in the Lu Watters and Turk Murphy Bands in SF (on a lot of CD's and records with these bands). Bob is 86 and still going strong. Remarkably, Bob has recorded professionally in every decade from the 30's through the 90's and may still have a 2000 session issued. Has always been accused of playing flat (true to some extent), but is also one of the most inventive, creative players ever. Really plays a long, flowing, true melodic variation behind the lead trumpet/cornet.Sorry for the long note.Joe Spencer
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Author: Joe Spencer
Date: 2000-08-22 17:19
Bob:
Nice to know someone else remembers the Jazz Record Center. There is a new one-relatively-on 26ht St in NYC which actually has the sign from the original. Nice shop, good collection of older records--but not the same. Not enough of that old record dust. Makes my wife gag but makes me nostalgic.
I had a chance to hear Bob Helm as late as September 98 with a band John Gill led on Wednesdays at the Gold Dust (off Union Square in San Fran. Still playing well on soprano and clarinet. That was a great band--lots of Turk Murphy alumni who knew the tunes and knew one another.
In listening to modern jazz (including my son's free jazz, such as David S. Ware and William Parker)I just tell myself it's different music. If I don't try to judge/compare based on trad jazz, I start to get into it.
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