 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-01-02 04:03
Well, I'll be trying out a wide-bore clarinet soon. And if I like it, how will it go in a section with classical music? Or with a small chamber ensemble such as WWQ (not too worried since I'm the ONLY clarinet in that one) or a clarinet quartet?
When I check out custom makers of clarinets, I see LOTS of soloists who use their instruments, and when people point out particular wide-bore clarinets, they talk usually about soloists of classical or jazz. D'Rivera (my personal fav), Brymer, Goodman, etc. etc. But does anyone know of people using them in sections? Playing with other clarinets at the same time? In wind ensembles or anything like that? I may keep it and if it doesn't blend just use it for working on and eventually playing dixieland music, but what are your thoughts on big bores in a section? I know some people don't like them, but I've heard some recordings of soloists and it just sounds like a clarinet to me. Of course the players are something else too . . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2008-01-02 04:20
In all likelihood, you'll be able to adapt the instrument to your own playing and you won't stick out. I suspect it might have different intonation idiosyncracies, but with some experimentation you should be able to resolve these to your liking. I think you're headed to Fort Leonard Wood. There's not too many clarinetists stationed at that band from what I've heard. Hence, it might not be a big problem there...
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-01-02 15:30
IM(NSo)HO, hearing a variety of tone coloration when there is more than one clarinet part adds to the quality of the experience.
Others (Why?) want every player to sound like a product of the same midi track: same instruments, same mouthpieces, same reed, ...
Make the sound you like! There's likely to be more difference between players than between instruments.
Bob Phillips
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-02 17:12
Reginald Kell and Frederick Thurston played on the same bore configuration and sounnded completely different...Thurston had a narrow and straight tone and Kell an open and flute-like sonority. Reeds and mouthpieces can decide a good deal so remember you may set out on a goal to find that open sound and end up playing the way you sound no matter what. So much about sound is your individual perception.
As for blending in a section I have found large bore instruments and smaller bore instruments tend not to tune and blend so well...that does not mean it cannot be done, but some problems tend to assert themselves quickly. The throat register is on the 1010 Boosey clarinets does not jive too well with R13s etc. This does not mean you can't play along with these instruments but you may find yourself playing with reeds and set up somewhat in order to blend better.
David Dow
Post Edited (2008-01-02 17:24)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-01-02 17:40
Alexi,
I agree with Bob that a certain amount of tonal diversity can add more richness to the sound of a clarinet section. Personally, I find it rather boring when everyone in a section has too similar of a tonal concept. Anyway, it typically comes down to blending in a section whatever equipment one uses. No different than blending in a big band sax section.
I've worked with various bore sizes. In terms of what I'm looking for in my sound I settled on a 70's Couesnon (with a Buffet-like bore size) and a Grabner Kaspar-style K14 mouthpiece. With this set up I get a big, dark sound with a wonderful amount of ring and a remarkable level of projection. To my ears, it has a bigger and more projecting sound than when I used a large bore clarinet. For me, the K14 mouthpiece has been a stronger contributing factor than the size of the bore.
Anyway, it's always a great thing to experiment. You never know what discovery you'll stumble upon. Good luck with the new clarinet!
Roger
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-02 18:11
I am simply stating it can be difficult to blend or tune. The conductor may also notice a differnce between instruments as well...I have seen this crop up in many circumstances.
I will also mention to my freinds in the Cleveland Orchestra about your comments Ken. I have worked with a number of performers from that fine orchestra and will send them this page.
That being said a player does have to blend and work well within any section.
David Dow
Post Edited (2008-01-02 18:20)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-01-02 20:01
I got an email about it being dificult to blend and I can definitely see that being a case. Mostly because the soloists that I've heard with big bores are definitely different. But I will give it a shot. And I agree with the above statement about blending different sounds making a nice sound. One of my favorite songs I have is a horn, clarinet, and oboe. And unison is a homogenous blend sounding like a whole new, beautiful instrument. But it might be very tough. And of course this is all speculation because it depends both on the instrument and whether the instrument's compatability with the player. For instance, I haven't found a kaspar style mouthpiece that agrees with me. Hence, I stick to chedeville styles. Maybe a big bore would match me better than it would match someone else.
If I were to play duets with another clarinet, would that be a good indication of how it would blend? Or is there another test I can perform during the trial period to help determine how it might or might not fit in?
Alexi
PS - Sorry about the typos and worse grammar than usual from me. I tried to type this one from my iphone. VERY excited about it, but it takes so long to type, I take shortcuts.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2008-01-02 22:43)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-02 23:55
Even just playing unison scales and chords with a smaller bore clarinet of a different brand will suffice...Best of Luck!
David Dow
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-01-03 15:40
A couple of years ago, our commy orchestra played a piece where the flute and oboe combined into the MOST wonderful sound --the floeboe. It was wonderful --had almost the richness of a clarinet!
This floeboe sound was quite fragile --a bit of slipped intonation by either player would just kill it.
In my current ensembles, we do not spend enough time working on our joint sound. I should correct that this new year.
Bob Phillips
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-01-03 16:57
Depending on what period recording your hear re Thurston and Kell, the likelihood is that their bores are different. Most Thurston recordings feature the 15.2mm 1010 bore. Most Kell recordings feature a 14.8/14.9mm Hawkes and Sons bore. The instruments behave differently as well.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-01-03 17:33
Alexi,
This is stating the obvious.... In wanting to try a large bore clarinet you are wanting something different from the rest of the pack. That is, if you want to sound exactly like everyone else then why try a large bore?
Thus, it seems to me that you are wanting to explore a wider range of possibilities with the clarinet and see what you can discover. The tick, as we've discussed , is to not sound so different that you have trouble blending in a clarinet section. However, with the right amount of individuality you can add a freshness and richer tonal qualities & shape to the sound of your section. Therefore, it's a matter of having the right balance....and that comes from you. It's my impression that you are a seasoned player.
With all of this in mind I wouldn't be too concerned about using a large bore clarinet. Have a great time exploring it and see where it can take you.
To add another recommendation for listening to creative orchestral blendings, carefully listen to some large jazz ensemble recordings of Gil Evans. In terms of creative orchestration it's hard to beat the recordings Gil did with Miles Davis in the 50's. You'll hear blendings like alto flute, french horn, and bassoon. His writing for the bass clarinet is especially good. You'll also find examples of where he blends the soprano clarinet in various ranges with other instruments. I'm very fond of the sound of lower range clarinets with french horn or muted trombones.
PS, If Gil Evans is to your liking then go back to arrangements he did in the late 40's for the Claude Thornhill band. The band made extensive use of the clarinet and sometimes had 5 or 6 clarinets. The clarinet - french horn blend was a signature sound of the Thornhill band. It's stunningly beautiful!
Roger
Post Edited (2008-01-03 17:39)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-04 01:43
I always find no matter what after getting used to a particular instrument and/or set up I eventually settle in and begin to play simply the way I play. No matter how much gadgetry and finnigling eventually one simply plays the way "they" play. In fact it may be more interesting to try your hand at an Albert system clarinet or even a period instrument in order to define some of the things you "do" as a player. I also think the Saxophone can be very informative of your technique as a clarinetist...it may also open up your technique a bit to different ways of going about the clarinet and provide ample insight into how to approach tone and sound.
The player must set the parameters of how you should sound. Best of luck!
David Dow
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-01-04 23:56
Roger,
You are SPOT ON with me liking to be a bit more of an individual. From the car I drive, to the way I take care of myself, to my few tattoos, to (yes) my clarinet, I don't really enjoy being one of the many. I prefer to try to be one of the few. And I'll definitely check out this instrument. I will be checking it against my Tom Ridenour Lyrique and also against my Leblanc Opus which was worked on and adjusted by Tom Ridenour. Should be a good bit of fun comparing and contrasting three VERY excellent instruments.
David D,
You're right about ending up sounding the way I sound. I have had ONE particular instance in which my sound was changed VERY noticeable. When I tried out a Dan Johnston mouthpiece. I instantly bought it and it was a GREAT $100 spent. Great quality at a great price. But it definitely changed my sound.
I do continue to play as I play, and sound like "Alexi" no matter what. But maybe a different clarinet will make things easier to make the sound I like. For example, my military band supplies us with Buffet R13 clarinets. And I don't like mine. It's not a bad clarinet, but after playing the Lyrique and my personal Opus, I notice all the flaws the R13 I was issued has. And how dificult it is to play. Very different resistances throughout the instrument on different notes, altissimo VERY resistant and hard to tune, and I'm frustrated every time I play.
As per the Albert or period instrument, I don't quite think I'm ready to tackle those. I still have SO much work left to work on with the Boehm.
And as for the sax, I played sax throughout high school, but that's been a few years ago and right now it's very frustrating trying to start up again. Especially when I see all the holes and gaps in my Bb clarinet playing. It makes it dificult for me to start another one because I'm much better at clarinet, yet still have more work to do and I feel I'm 'wasting' my time trying to learn something else without being proficient enough on one.
Ah well. Lots to think about. I'll come back with my results after I get it and try it against my two personal horns.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-04 23:56
Bob Phillips: "A couple of years ago, our commy orchestra played a piece where the flute and oboe combined into the MOST wonderful sound --the floeboe. It was wonderful --had almost the richness of a clarinet!
This floeboe sound was quite fragile --a bit of slipped intonation by either player would just kill it."
Just listening to L'Arlesienne Suite No.2 (3rd mvmt), and there's a perfect example of the floboe on there - both in unison, but the flute has the strength in the upper register and the oboe gains strength in the lower.
Same in the 2nd mvmt of Dvorak's 'cello concerto, and the military band selections from 'Oliver!' where the flute and oboe are in unison in a descending phrase (during the alto sax solo), the flute being stronger high up and the oboe gaining strength as the phrase descends, so they balance each other out nicely in volume as one fades out the other gains strength.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-05 01:35
TKS, Chris, for your mention of my long-time fav music, L'Arles I [and II]. I had the pleasure of accompanying, countermelody, [on alto cl [viola in orch?, comm. band arrng] a skillful flutist on her "audition-performance" flute solo, later in the movement, great music. Much care required !! Made me WORK ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-01-07 20:26
Recieved the clarinet, tried it out, and it's not quite up to the bar that I've set for it so worrying about it in a section is a moot point. Ah well. At least I can say I gave it a shot.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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