 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-21 13:23
Could someone please tell me when precisely clarinet manufacturers began using plastic rather than hard rubber. Also, is there a difference between hard rubber and Bakelite? Which was a better material for clarinets?
Thanks!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-21 14:18
As I understand, Bakelite is oil based and not related to hard rubber. And hard rubber is partially extracts from the rubber tree and the rest is a bunch of stuff that our mom's said we should never put in our mouth.
What's the best for making clarinets?
[steps away from subject for fear of argument]
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-11-21 19:28
Plastic should be more stable, over time.
The way the material is used, however, tends to be in extrusion (because plasticity allows for the material to be drawn, blown or poured into molds)
of student instruments in high volumes.
I believe there are some high end double reeds made in plastic, that are bored with standard tools and hand finished.
Hard rubber can be milled in much the way as wooden billets.
Kenny Davern played a Conn 16 clarinet made from hard rubber that he had modified to his tastes. It looked AWFUL, but played beautifully.
Bakelite is amazingly brittle and requires some sort of fiber aggregate to hold the works together.
It bears mentioning that one of the best clarinets made today (Ridenour Lyrique) is made from hard rubber.
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-22 01:17
Anyone know what year "they" started using plastic instead of hard rubber?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-22 03:51
Bakelite is Phenol Formaldehyde, made by reacting phenol or carbolic acid with the gas formaldehyde. Often a filler was added.
It doesn't turn green like hard rubber eventually (always?) does.
It was not so brittle that it did not find many uses, eg switchgear , wireless cabinets, electric plugs, door knobs, bottle tops, etc.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-11-22 06:10
-- "It doesn't turn green like hard rubber eventually (always?) does." --
Is there a way to to turn the rubber black again?
Steve
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-22 06:14
Selmer 53
I dont' think there is a direct answer for that.
Leblanc/Noblet had their V40 at the same time as their plastics. So the "instead" is not correct ..... they used plastic because it was cheaper and possibly because few rubber clarinets were purchased by the market.
As mentioned, the manufacturers started using plastic as an additional cheaper, easier to use material. Some makers still made/make rubber clarinets on and off.
manufacturers have just used plastic as an alternative to create a cheaper clarinet. such as the old Noblet 27s - a model 40 with a plastic bell and/or barrel from the 50s/60s. Creating a more affordable clarinet due to the lower cost of production and materials.
and of course the full plastic clarinets made in mass for students were even cheaper.
as stated above, the rubber clarinets still required milling - more labor - more cost.
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-22 10:28
These are all great answers.
What I'm trying to do is find out a year range of a clarinet, a Selmer "Manhattan" manufactured out of Elkhart, because there are no charts of serial #s out there to my knowledge.
I just won it on an auction site, so I don't have it in my posession yet, but I'm relatively certain it's not wood, and in the photos the body looked like it might be somewhat greenish. Thus, I think it may be hard rubber as opposed to bakelite.
Since I've never heard of or seen this model, I was intrigued...and it was cheap...so I'm wondering if it'll be a total lemon, or one of those happy surprise gems that one tells stories about later ("...And, after a thorough overhaul, that little dandy that noone ever heard of became my number one choice to play!).
Ridiculous, I know, but I really want a non-wooden inst. for travel/outdoor purposes. If this doesn't work out, Sir Ridenour will be hearing from me soon.
Does anyone have a Lyrique Custom they could wax poetic about?
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-23 02:24
do you have pics - does it have the triangular emblem on the bell ... or other things which may help identify it's age ?
i would assume, it was made before selmer usa started their signet line ... which could help age it
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-23 03:17
funny thing is ... Selmer USA had a Manhattan saxophone back in 1935ish which was before the Signet line (with a gap for the war)
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-23 03:23
Not sure how to get a picture to you...bad at this.
Google the item (Selmer Manhattan) and an auction site should supply you with a photo.
I'm looking for a time frame of when it was manufactured, and by whom.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-23 04:37
found one .. the one your bid on and won
prob mid 30s
see the trill key guides - old fashioned type from ... the 20-30s
i wonder who made high trill key touches .. that could be an identifier
Martin made the sax for Selmer USA
you will have to look at pics and compare to your clarinet to find the maker
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-11-23 06:09
took your advice and checked it on that auction site. it appears to be rubber as when i brightened the photo, i couldn't see any wood reflecting from the picture. also, i saw a very subtle light greenish toning, probably indicating it is a rubber clarinet. thats just my guess.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-23 06:56
My guess is that Martin made it.
Hopefully after a good overhaul it'll be interesting to play.
Please let me know if you find out anything else about this clarinet.
Thanks again, folks...it amazes me sometimes, the ammount of knowledge that's passed along on this board.
Cheers!
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Author: perryg114
Date: 2007-11-25 11:56
The green haze is oxyidation and can be sometimes be polished off. I have polished hard plastic clarinets and mouth pieces with a buffing wheel and jewler's rouge. Practice on something you don't care about first because it is very easy to burn the plastic or make grooves in it. Also don't point sharp edges upwards or the wheel will catch them and rip the object out of your hands. I use the wax based rouge that comes in a big bar. Also with plastic you want to make sure you keep the wheel coated with rouge or it will burn the plastic. DON'T touch the reed surface at all with the buffing wheel. You can even remove scratches if you lightly sand them out when buff the surface shinny again. This same polishing process works with keys but you need more pressure, never sand keys though.
Perry
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-25 15:38
I've received said "Manhattan"...
The joints do have a greenish hue, so I assume they are rubber.
However, the barrel and bell do not have this trait. They are shiny but still have the "Manhattan" logo engraved on them, so I assume they are in fact part of the original set up.
All of this leads me to the conclusion that, as stevesklar said, whomever the manufacurer was saved some $ by making the bell an barrel out of plastic rather than rubber. The clarinet even came with a mouthpiece with the "Manhattan" logo!
Does this help date it?
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-26 20:42
unless it has a "made in 193x" stamp on it I think it will be hard to date it without research.
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