 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-16 20:48
When I bought my (used) soprano clarinet I noticed that the throat A key was set up to have a slight bit of "lost motion", meaning that the regulating screw allowed the A key to lift up slightly before the G# pad began to lift. I didn't think this was correct, so I adjusted the screw to eliminate the lost motion.
Since then, I've had the clarinet serviced twice (and not for G#/A trouble), and both times it seems that the repair person took it upon themselves to regulate these keys and re-establish the lost motion.
My (used) bass clarinet, recently purchased also exhibited lost motion in these same keys. At this point it's hard not to notice a trend...
So my question: is it indeed normal -- or even desirable -- to have a slight bit of lost motion in the throat A/G# keys?
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Author: srattle
Date: 2007-08-16 20:58
It's necessary. The clarinet doesn't really speak at all if that screw is tight. Leave it a little loose!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-08-16 20:59
Indeed. If the screw is overly tight, your G# key will be raised ever so slightly and the clarinet will not play correctly.
(Edit to G#...duh!)
Post Edited (2007-08-17 23:08)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-16 21:29
Yup, its very desireable for "safety". Its one of 3 [perhaps there are more] , critically "tight" adjustments for coordinated 2-pad seating. the F/C with the E/B, and the 1 and 1 fingering via the bridge key. Changes in pads [moisture] and in keying [temperature] or loss of adjusting corking can make your good cl nearly unplayable !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-16 22:16
Thanks for your replies everyone! Looks like I'll be putting that little bit of play back in.
BTW, Don, I've seen mention of the 1 and 1 fingering but I'm not sure I understand what that is. Could you please explain this, and, what the bridge key is?
Cheers!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-16 23:50
The Bridge is the connection between the upper and lower joint. The reason for that little connection is so that you can get a clarion Bb (first ledger line above staff) just using Thumb/register/first finger of the left hand and the First finger of the right hand. This is VERY important in arpeggiated figures which you should be practicing diligently.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 00:40
The xoo|xoo fingering for Bb is also called the 'long Bb'. If going from Gb to Bb (or F#-A#) then use xoo|oxo.
The ONLY place on a clarinet that is permissable to have any double action on it is between the throat A and G# keys.
If you have double action anywhere else (eg. between the LH F/C key and the RH F/C key, or between the E/B key and the crow's foot), it ain't set up all propper like.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-17 01:24
Again, thank you for the informative replies.
Regarding arpeggios... I'm still working on basic tone and getting familiar with the clarinet(s) again by improvising extensively, simultaneously working at learning to resolve clarinet pitch with my "perfect" pitch. Getting there, slowly but surely.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-17 03:36
I just tried out the 1+1 fingering. This may be old hat to you veterans, but I got quite the thrill out of learning a new fingering. Thanks for that. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-17 06:26
I am also bothered by the lost motion- I always reduce it as much as possible without causing problems. I think the 1mm space I see on many clarinets is far beyond the 'safty zone'.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 12:24
1mm is way too much - adjust the screw so there's only a tiny amount of play felt between the A and G# keys. But it depends on how much the pads compress - this is why there should be some play so if the G# pad compresses it won't be held open.
There are some teachers in my area that take out all the play between the A and G# keys because they think they know what they're doing (and should never be let loose with a screwdriver as they haven't a clue), and sure enough the clarinets pack up as the throat G# doesn't close.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 19:03
Provided the throat A key opens with sufficient venting (I usually go for 2mm) and the amount of double action is set to how you feel is enough, the G# key should open so the stopper makes contact with the body at the same time as the throat A key.
If there's too much opening of the G# key (in that it still has some more movement in it when the A key hasn't), either put a thicker stopper cork on the underside of the G# touch or CAREFULLY bend the touchpiece down.
If the G# key is preventing the A key from opening to the correct venting, then either thin down the G# stopper cork with a strip of abrasive paper or trim with a sharp razor blade, or bend the touchpiece upwards - always taking care when bending keys to prevent the pad getting squished or losing it's seating, or snapping the key off. If in doubt, leave it to a tech that's used to bending keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-17 19:54
ChrisP- since the A key raises the Ab via the screw, isn't the stopper under the A key pointless?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-17 20:03
Chris and Ben have it rite ! I'm presently trying to take out the "slop" between the E/B and the "crows foot" on an OLD Kohlert, so will welcome all advice . I think of the 1 & 1 as Eb/Bb, but TEHO [ to each his own, ?new? terminology]. TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-17 20:03
(if you don't mind me chiming in) On all clarinets I played so far, the Ab key opens wider than the A key, so the the A stopper is all but pointless.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 21:42
The throat G# key shouldn't open any more than it has to, and should be determined by how much the A key opens by.
The throat A key needs a stopper on it to prevent the adjusting screw chewing through the silencing material on the throat A key arm. If there is no cork stopper under the A touch, it'll exert a lot of pressure on the G# cup arm when opened and can bend the G# key making it open too much. So a stopper on BOTH is the best done thing in practice.
Don, here's a way to take out the slop between the E/B key and the crow's foot (provided the F/C and E/B pads close together) - while holding the E/B pad closed, bend the connecting arm on the E/B key (that links it to the LH E/B lever) towards the body to reduce the opening of the E/B key. Do this bit by bit and check it hasn't bent too far causing double action between the LH F/C key and the RH F/C key and between the crow's foot and the F#/C# key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-17 22:07
> I'm presently trying to take out the "slop" between the E/B and the "crows
> foot" on an OLD Kohlert, so will welcome all advice .
Along Chris' line, I had cases where the crow's food proved unbendable (or I'd have to disassemble it all the times as not to exert undue strain to the pillars and all). I resorted to shimming the underside of the E touchpiece with thin cork or ultrasuede. Ultrasuede has the advantage of providing just the right amount of flexibility to cater for unequally "worn-in" pads. Cork, on the other hand, can be far better sanded. In a nutshell, bend the foot so that it looks right and feels halfway right, and shim with cork.
I don't have this problem with my Marigaux. No more crow's foot, just four neat adjusting screws...
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 22:18
Only the four (or five if you count the throat G# adjusting screw)? that's hardly any, though it's certainly a lot of adjusting screws for a clarinet to have.
I lost count of how many screws were on the Marigaux 910 oboe I just worked on, which I polished up and blued every single screw. My 930 cor has around thirty of them!
Though do make sure the silencing material under the adjusting screws is tough so they don't chew through it. Cork is useless under adjusting screws - use gasket cork or any thin but tough material.
I use ultrasuede on the crow's foot and anywhere an open key is stopped against the body (eg. thumb ring, lower joint rings, LH F/C lever and low E/B connecting lever or on the LH E/B lever itself if it isn't pinned) to elimilate noise.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-08-17 23:13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 22:28
I wonder if Uri Geller can straighten out bent clarinet keys (or bend keys) by the sheer power of telekinesis alone? That'd save on a lot of tools!
And no marks on the metalwork - just imagine, a dent in a sax body pushed out with no physical force or contact and therefore no need for dent tools! How can I acquire telekinetic powers?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-17 22:41
> ... though make sure the silencing material under the adjusting screws is
> tough so they don't chew through it. Cork is useless under adjusting screws
> - use gasket cork or any thin but tough material.
I sacrificed a mouthpiece cushion (Yamaha's transparent). Perfect. Cut, peel, stick.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 22:53
Yamaha do put a piece of plastic on the throat A key to silence the click against the adjusting screw, but others (eg. Buffet) use a nylon adjusting screw instead. Just be sure you use the correct size screwdriver when making the adjustment so you don't knacker up the screw head (and this also applies to steel screws too!).
But when it's a steel adjusting screw without a nylon tip, you'll always need some sort of silencing material under it. If there's not much clearance or a recess beneath the screw, file a flat on the key arm into which you can stick a bit of silencing material. If it's an old clarinet withput an adjusting screw, then use a thick piece of leather stuck to the underside of the throat G# cup arm arch, but obviously trimmed to leave a bit of play. If the keys are unplated, then hard solder on an adjusting screw pip made from nickel silver, thread it and fit an adjusting screw and filing a recess in the A key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 22:56
... But only on Boehm system clarinets.
Simple (Albert) system, German and Oehler systems have independantly acting throat G# and A keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-18 02:18
TKS fellas, I did much like you said, Chris, I just glued a small/thin piece of cork between the end of the "activating arm" and the lower end of the left lever, works fine and is quieter. Quite a great maintenance discussion. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-18 14:44
ChrisP- since the A key lifts the G# key and the G# key has a stopper, is there any meaning in having a stopper on the A key? Mechanically speaking, is seems unneccessary.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-18 14:48
As I said earlier - the throat A key needs a stopper on it to prevent the adjusting screw chewing through the silencing material on the throat A key arm. If there is no cork stopper under the A touch, it'll exert a lot of pressure on the G# cup arm when opened and can bend the G# key making it open too much. So a stopper on BOTH is the best done thing in practice.
This is where practice outweighs theory.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-18 15:48
Gotcha. It reminds me of an old few clarinets I had that had no adjusting screw. I wonder if those were ment to put cork on and adjust by sanding down, or the players at the time just pushed both keys; not just the A.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-18 15:58
The older (Boehm system) clarinets without an adjusting screw usually had a piece of cork stuck on the underside of the G# cup arm to link it to the A key, but more often than not it would get crushed or split leaving tons of double action. So it's best to use a firmer material such as a piece of leather for this connection.
Cork has the advantage over other materials used to silence and as key stoppers in that it is easy to shape and adjust by sanding - but it isn't good for certain connections due to it being easy to compress and break up (which is where gasket cork or a similar hard wearing material is better) and can also be noisy when used under key feet on open standing keys (which is where good quality felt or ultrasuede is better).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-08-18 15:58)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-08-18 19:37
Does not intonation of these two notes also require/suggest some adjustments?
richard smith
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-18 20:17
Set the A key to the required venting and the G# key should follow suit, with neither less nor more opening than is needed. Both keys should fully open so both stoppers are hitting the deck at the same time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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