 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Claire
Date: 2007-07-24 04:31
I have a huge problem that has been plaguing me for about the last 4 years now. These incidents don't happen all of the time. In fact, the person in question can be quite nice sometimes. But every once in a while, at the most inappropriate times, this person will come up with the most condescending remarks. And I know that it's just to make her feel better about herself too. As a matter of fact, I think it would be impossible to say that at some point in our musical careers we come across this attitude. We musicians can be an insecure bunch. What I'm asking for is suggestions on how to get this horrible condescending behaviour to stop. Maybe even tell stories of what you've done to counter this same behaviour. I might also add that this person at one point was a public school music teacher and she always feels the need to take charge and talk down to us whenever we have a woodwind quintet rehearsal, like we've all come to bask in her intelligence. It's been 4 years of this same frustration at having to deal with this behaviour and something has got to give. Any suggestions that you have would be most appreciated.
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Author: butterflymusic
Date: 2007-07-24 05:58
Sorry to say, but you have only two choices here; you can either confront the person with what's bothering you --- and be prepared for the consequences (tension or an outright confrontation) --- or ignore the behavior, and let it roll off your back.
There are toxic people in all walks of life. IMHO, how you allow them to affect you is the only thing you can control.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-07-24 08:07
Ask them to demonstrate how a certain phrase should be done in front of the whole group. Almost with the 'Alright then, if you're so great, why don't you show us all how it SHOULD be done' style, but not as abrupt. Be a lot more subtle than that, but don't take their 'no' for an answer.
Maybe immediately after one of their unwelcome remarks, say to them 'How do YOU feel I/we should be playing this?' Single them out and then comment on what they do as a group, ganging up on them as it were. You'll find they're not as good as they may think they are, and need to be taken down a peg or several.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-07-24 11:39
That's the problem with wind quintets - in addition to the excessively large and largely lousy repertory, they're breeding grounds for prima donas, attitude and raw insecurity. Plus you have to deal with flute players.
The solution is to form at least a sextet (pairs of clarinets, horns and bassoons) or better yet an octet (add a pair of oboes). That way, you eliminate the flute (the source of most discontent) and you temper other bad attitudes and habits by ensuring that every player has a mate of his/her own kind. It's guaranteed to raise the quality of music and reduce the naturally obnoxious tendencies of the musicians.
"Hell is other people"- J.P. Sartre
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-07-24 11:45
larryb wrote:
> The solution is to form at least a sextet (pairs of clarinets,
> horns and bassoons) or better yet an octet (add a pair of
> oboes). That way, you eliminate the flute (the source of most
> discontent) and you temper other bad attitudes and habits by
> ensuring that every player has a mate of his/her own kind.
> It's guaranteed to raise the quality of music and reduce the
> naturally obnoxious tendencies of the musicians.
Well put and (in my experience) exactly the case ...GBK
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-24 11:57
Hello Claire,
In my younger years I was very much the condescending idiot...and I often managed to be so without feeling that I was all that out of line, that everyone else (of course) understood and agreed with me.
Now I'm actually quite good about being condescending, and in the circumstances you're describing I can verbally spar with another condescender without bringing things to outright combat.
I think Butterflymusic has the best advice at first blush. I agree with their thoughts and would add that WHAT we do with adverse situations is more important than what those situations actually ARE.
But if you must do something...Chris's idea of situational accountability for what they say is awfully appealing!
Does it go without saying that the others in your ensemble feel the same way?
James
Oops! "Now I'm actually quite good about being condescending..." = I'm not THAT condescending anymore
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-07-24 11:59)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-07-24 12:22
Send out a casting call for flute players.
Be prepared for your inbox to overflow...
If you are forced to reform a group, you may find the other members to have a similar experience with the offender.
Remember that no good deed shall go unpunished by the cranks.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-07-24 14:16
Before confronting this person, ask other members of the group what their impression is of YOU. Others see us differently than we ourselves do and a reality check from time to time isn't a bad thing.
So after finding out that you're a cooperative person to have in the ensemble and that others think the same way you do, follow the advice above or find another ensemble and start over.
I had a boss who has a wall full of certificates from courses he'd taken and could be nice most of the time, but he'd say the most stinging and condescending things at times. All of us eventually quit. Before the end of my notice he asked me why I quit and I told him. He finally had someone else in the office say things to the employees, recognizing that this was an area that others did better.
Unfortunately since this is part of everyone's life, perhaps it's a good opportunity to both grow a thicker skin and develop the skill to say things at the right time and in a proper way.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-07-24 15:51
In a group I know, two of the retired pro players were muttering about how amateurs always "bring the ensemble down."
HAHA, at the next performance, they both made bad entrances and bobbled in highly exposed passages --while the amateur sailed through. Just bad (and good) luck, but a lesson in reality.
Bob Phillips
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2007-07-25 06:11
Advice:
Don't even THINK about trying to change someone else's behavior.
Concentrate on changing YOUR thinking from "She MUST stop being condescending or I will be unhappy" to "It would be nice if she would stop being condescending, but I can live with it. She's a jerk sometimes, but we all are. I'm not going to make MYSELF upset because SHE's acting like a jerk." (Also, note who makes whom upset.)
The operant principle here is that she's not "doing" anything to you to MAKE you uncontrollably upset, YOU are upsetting yourself because another person isn't living up to your standards of how people MUST behave for you to be serene.
And yes, I'm a licensed psychotherapist. (A crabby, directive, and sometimes downright pushy psychotherapist, but fairly successful in the consulting room, none the less.)
B.
P.S. If you MUST get upset at someone, note which one of you two is doing all the suffering while the other person is totally oblivious and floating through life totally unaware of the emotional upheaval.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-25 11:00
Without knowing exactly the things this person does, and assuming the others feel the same way as you... this is from my experience...
1. Do not 'gang up' on her.
2. Talk to this person directly, as a group, openly.
3. Make it seem like it's your fault. Not 'you cause problems when you...' but 'Sometimes we feel bad when you... and thats our fault for taking it personally. We know you are not meaning to hurt our feelings but etc etc etc.'
4. Make it understood that you want to continue playing as a group, but that will change if it must.
5. Always help them understand the situation. Do not try to stifle them or they will see it as a competition.
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