 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MaDxClArInAtOr
Date: 2007-01-27 23:48
i've heard that wooden clarinets have a certain life-span of approximately 8 years, depending on how often they are used... a local clarinet prof was saying that he's been through atleast 7 pairs of clarinets by now. i just dont seem to have a good grasp of this concept. how does a clarinet get blown out?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-01-27 23:55
Clarinets are just barely broken in after 8 years -- it's the clarinet professors who get blown out. There have been dozens of threads on this ever-popular subject, search around.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-01-28 00:38
The only explanation that I have been given that makes any sense is that the bore will begin to go "out of round." That is, the bore will become ever so ovate over the course of years having condensation run down the "gutter" more than any other part of the bore.
If this is a "killer" for a horn there are technicians out there who could VERY carefully re-ream the bore...with the understanding that the horn then would play differently from both its current condition as well as when it was new.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-01-28 04:35
Over the years I've seen several clarinet players who are like this local professor, think they need to change equipment often, etc. I noticed that it is always a matter of what their personality is like, and doesn't have much to do with the condition of their current equipment. The only situation I can think of that a clarinet will be "blown out" is if Superman was blowing it.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-01-28 04:54
A clarinet may not blow out, as in, it is no longer playable, but there comes a time when it doesn't play like it did in it's first few years of life. Why continue to play an instrument that doesn't play how you want it?
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-01-28 09:16
I'm curious if the Professor ever has had the pads replaced ??
There are many players out there who have vintage instruments. Many professionals play older Buffets. People covet their 60-70s Buffets, Leblanc LLs, Selmer Centered Tones, etc. If all these "older" clarinets are blown out then I'd love to have that pile of clarinets.
If clarinets are properly taken care of then they should last a life time.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-01-28 09:59
there have been many threads on this
there are many old clarinets that still sound great
but it is possible that (as Paul Aviles mentioned) that small changes MAY occur in the the bore that MAY have an effect on the instrument that are not ideal (whether this is to do with condensation being concentrated in a certain area of the bore is another matter).
i do know, for instance, that my R13 B flat changed in the first years i owned it, and the tone/response/intonation were greatly improved by some "re-reaming" done after i'd played it for 2 years- another player might have described this clarinet as having been "blown out".
i don't support just making a "blanket statement" that all wooden clarinets "blow out", but accept that changes- either pronounced or slight- may happen in the first years of use.
donald
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-01-28 11:49
Hey, if he's got some vintage clarinets he wants to get rid of--oh, yeah, sure, they're all blown out, worthless, terrible, unplayable--send them to me!
;-)
But seriously.... There must have been dozens of threads on the Klarinet list and here about clarinets getting blown out. It's possible that the bore of a clarinet made of wood that wasn't aged properly, or a clarinet that's been seriously abused, can go out of round, and it's possible that the damage will spoil the instrument, but a well-made, well-treated clarinet doesn't get blown-out just because it's old. I'm an amateur, but fwiw, I own a Buffet (Paris) in Bb from 1937 and a Buffet (Paris) from 1931, both in good playing condition. I think that they were both put away in good condition by the former owners and not played for a number of years before I bought them.
The clarinet teacher who believes in instruments getting blown out may not know a repair person with the skill to adjust the instruments properly. Careless maintenance or an unskilled repair job can make the instrument play like a pig--and these faults will only increase over time, as screws loosen and need to be re-tightened just the right amount; the threads on the screws or inside the screw holes may begin to strip; gunk builds up in the register key tube; key corks wear down or fall off and the replacements must be just the right thickness; springs develop metal fatigue. All sorts of little things need adjustments and a lot of this tinkering isn't minor so much as delicate. For the screw on the crossover between the A and A-flat key, for instance, half a turn too little or too far can make the difference between a playable and an unplayable instrument. I'd look at all these things before believing in the very unlikely phenomenon of "blow-out."
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-01-28 14:12
Hello,
(Having just read up on the same topic last week)
Rather than thinking that the clarinet professor originally described doesn't know a good repair tech (implying that they don't really maintain their instruments) it is easier to believe that great performers of the instrument are more sensitive to changes in their clarinets than others.
When the clarinet stops giving them exactly what they expect AND they've maintained the horn, they decide it is "blown".
A "blown" clarinet to a major clarinetist might still be an awesome clarinet to another.
GENERALLY speaking...the people who get the big gigs (prof's, symph's) have gotten there not only because they worked like dogs, but because they were exceptionally talented on top of it.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-01-28 15:30
There are several explanations of blow out, all of them plausible and all of them contradictory.
Many people think it's an illusion, and certainly there are lots of very old clarinets in use by top players. My main Buffets date from the mid 1970s, and I have several that are much older, and they play very well.
Also, a top quality overhaul, where the pad rims are leveled and the wood grain is sealed, can make an amazing difference, and that may be all that's necessary.
The one thing it's *not* caused by is enlargement caused by swabbing. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/06/000786.txt.
Alvin Swiney says it's caused by the build-up of deposits of lint and minerals from the breath and saliva inside the tone holes (which the swab doesn't reach). He says removal of the deposits restores the instrument completely: http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/06/000791.txt
Kalmen Opperman says that barrels absorb water from the bore and the end grain at the bottoms of the sockets. Certainly the new barrels he's made for me have changed significantly over the first few months. He's had to adjust each of them with a reamer several times until they stabilize, and every year or so I go to him for a touchup.
Guy Chadash says that the bore swells each time you play the instrument and should return to its original dimensions as it dries. However, when the maker doesn't season the wood long enough, or tries to speed up the process with heat or oil (as all the big manufacturers do), the wood doesn't return to the original reamer size, slowly destroying the response. Since the swelling enlarges the bore, there's no way to fix it. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=289&t=289.
Choose whichever explanation sinks your boat.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-01-28 23:40
Donald wrote, and has written before, conjuring questions in my mind...
"i do know, for instance, that my R13 B flat changed in the first years i owned it, and the tone/response/intonation were greatly improved by some "re-reaming" done after i'd played it for 2 years"
Do you think this was because the bore had shrunk? That would all make sense.
Or perhaps the bore needed to be smooth, and the moisture had made the surface "hairy". REaming may also help here.
However if the bore had ovalled, which I think is perhaps a more likely cause of "blowing out", then re-reaming it would presumably restore the short "diameter" of the oval to what it should be, but leave the long "diameter" of the oval oversized. I'm intrigued.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-01-28 23:55
If the alleged "blowing out" phenomenon is caused by dimensional changes of the WOOD over time, then the solution is simple: play hard rubber clarinets. Only Vytas will know the difference.................
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Author: msloss
Date: 2007-01-29 00:35
It doesn't appear anyone is really disputing that instruments change with time and use. I think "Tobin" hit it. Those cast-offs may be perfectly marvelous horns for many players. I have, as a dealer, sold enough clarinets to enough professionals on top of my own experience as a player to realize this is a very persnickety thing and minor differences or changes mean the world. Most pros buy horns anticipating how they will play in about 18 months after a good break-in and steady use. This is already recognition that they change. The instruments continue to change with use, so the expected sweet-spot is about 5 years once they are broken in, getting you close to that 6 - 8 year figure that is thrown about. That isn't to say they go bad, but it does mean sooner or later there is a good chance they will shift out of that zone of perfection for *that* concert artist.
Can that process be reversed? Maybe. Is it something a pro has the time and inclination to mess around with? Mostly not. Clarinets, even fully customized, just aren't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. With decent resale prices on used horns, especially those played by concert artists, why not flip them for something that plays "just so"?
Really what it comes down to is if your clarinet serves your needs and plays to your liking, terrific. Nobody is going to make you change it out for the sake of change. If it isn't responding like you need and there is a new one that does, go for it. What difference does it make if the clarinet changed or you changed? Players fall in love and out of love with reeds, ligs, mouthpieces, barrels, bells, cases, whatever all the time. Why let the equipment be an impediment if something works better, new, old or just different?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-01-29 00:42
I believe that professional-level clarinets (in the $2500 to $4500 price range) become blown out roughly in relation to the appearance of newer, higher-priced professional models. They're definately trash after a couple of years.
Bill.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-01-29 01:15
Bill wrote:
> I believe that professional-level clarinets (in the $2500 to
> $4500 price range) become blown out roughly in relation to the
> appearance of newer, higher-priced professional models.
I don't see that being the case. Count how many players in American orchestras are still playing the "plain jane" R13 vs. any other model from any manufacturer, including Buffet itself.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-01-29 01:58
"The instruments continue to change with use, so the expected sweet-spot is about 5 years once they are broken in"
I disagree. I don't think a WELL-adjusted clarinet needs ANY breaking in, nor that it actually does break in. Although a player may well need a period of time to allow himself to be "broken in" to adjust to a different clarinet.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-01-29 04:13
I think this varies bewteen individual instruments too.
I purchased a pair of Leblanc Concertos about four years ago. I recently got a Buffet R13 Bb to replace the Concerto Bb; it just didn't sound good to me anymore. The A I originally purchased seems to be getting better and better!
Is this the clarinets, me, or both? Either way, we are always seeking to improve our playing and buying a new instrument/altering our setup is one way of keeping things fresh, new and interesting.
Those people who have owned the same instruments for 20 years are probably very stuck in their ways, too. It's a personality thing as someone said earlier.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-01-29 07:28
i've got not much more to say
Gordon- i believe that YOU measured the bore (top joint at the middle socket) of the clarinet in question a month or so before i took it to the USA for Clarinetfest 2000. You found the bore at the bottom of the top joint was oval. Francois rebored the lower joint, which had shrunk, but didn't touch the bore of the top joint- which was thus presumably left somewhat oval.
Anyway, i imagine that an oval bore can be "rounded" so that the larger diameter will stay the same but the smaller diameter is matched to that diameter, thus restoring "roundness".... boy, that was a mouthful.
there have been many good points made above- but this IS the 2000000000th thread on "blowing out"...
donald
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Author: Bartleby
Date: 2007-01-29 08:10
I believe Jack brymer played his 1010s for something like thirty years. They didn't sound like blow-outs to me.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-01-29 09:35
i think it's already been said by a number of people that they don't imagine EVERY clarinet "blows out"... or that the clarinet is somehow rendered unplayable... in this particular thread everybody has put forward quite reasonable theories and suggestions that aren't "all encompassing", so i'm not sure what point the Jack Brymer annecdote is trying to make
all i can say is LUCKY MAN!!!!
and yes- i have played 50 year old clarinets that were lovely, and i didn't need to "break in as a player" to discover this.
donald
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2007-01-29 22:32
In an earlier discussion of this, someone referred us to an interview with Harold Wright who said that his clarinets last about 10 years, given the intense use they get.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-30 17:12
I've only ever blown one clarinet out - a plastic Yamaha - I normally blow this one out rather than take my wooden clarinets out.
With wooden oboes when they come back to the factory for servicing or for an overhaul, we usually check the bore and ream it out if it has 'pulled in'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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