 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-07-19 00:40
Hello all, would like to hear your thoughts. Why was basset horn to low Eb ever made in the first place?
As far as I can conclude from my reading, when BH originated it was already with low C, so why would any manufacturer come up with a low Eb model? Would this instrument be more correctly called alto clarinet in F?
And assuming that supply would not exist unless the demand is/was there, who makes/made up the market that wanted BH to low Eb that prompted manufacturers to make this model?
Who wouldn't want the flexibility of 3 additional semitones on the BH if one was going to buy one anyway? After all, the literature consistently calls for the basset notes don't they?
???
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-07-19 02:25
BassetHorn (or shall I say Alto Clarinet in F Guy),
It all happened around 1808.
According to Anthony Baines (Woodwind Instruments and Their History): "It was [Iwan] Muller, inventor of the thirteen-keyed clarinet, who first proposed the alto clarinet, as a kind of wind viola for band transcriptions, and in this capacity the old 'soup ladle' lasted in the British service well into the present century [20th, that is], though it has since been replaced by the more powerful saxophone." (Baines, p. 129)
In the early days, these altos could be pitched in either Eb or F. According to Jonn Newell (The Basset-Horn and its Music) Muller was attempting to correct many of the physical and intonational problems of the early basset horn, but by doing so he apparently eliminated the lowest end of its range (below Eb): "Muller's instruments were superior in intonation and had extra keys, but in order to improve the response and tone he dispensed with the 'box' (and with it, the bottom four semitones). Some composers...wrote for Muller's shortened instrument, but players who wished to play the existing repertoire (including Mozart's works) had to struggle on with the now-antiquated instruments." (Newhill, p. 12)
Although you can play the Mozart Requiem and 1st Basset Horn part of the Gran Partita with your instrument, I believe the lack of basset extension at the bottom will cause frustration with trying to achieve basset horn sound nirvana. You may be able to do it, but it won't be easy. The extra tube length adds a certain quality to the low tones and throat tones. An additional set back for you is that many small bore basset horn players won't even acknowledge a large bore basset horn as legitimate, and yours additionally lacks the basset tones.
While it's true that the best basset horn literature uses the full range of the instrument, in addition to the works noted above, I believe you'll be able to play the first and second parts of all the Mozart Divertimenti for 3 basset horns, as well as the Stadler Terzetti - but you can't play the 3rd parts. You'll find other music as well to play, but I'd recommend you keep an eye open for a full range basset horn. As you note, you'll then be able to play the entire literature, and you'll sound much more bassety.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-07-19 04:01
Thank you Larry for your considerate thoughts. The explanation for the genesis of "shortened" BH makes sense: to try to correct intonation problems. And these models sort of linger on for a few decades, coexisting with low C model and large bore alto clarinet in Eb.
I am aware of the large vs small bore camps and having never played a large bore instrument, ie. Leblanc, I have no basis for comparison, but I am partial to the veiled tone quality of the small bore Selmer which is just dreamy.
On the other hand, I have a recording of the Mozart Divertimenti recorded by Trio Ebene, and they certainly used the new model Buffets, which are large bore a la Leblanc, and I must say they sound fabulous and 100% basset in term of meeting the generally-acceptable basset qualities: veiled, reserved, melacholic. So either the large vs. small bore controversy regarding sound quality is a myth, or it's the player who takes charge to ultimately achieves the BH sound that's most pleasing.
No Larry, I don't own a low Eb basset or F alto. My initial question is prompted by my recent encounter with both a Buffet alto clarinet to low E (traditional clarinet shape and wooden bell, but with a curved BH-liked neck), and a Buffet basset horn to low Eb (shaped similar to the low C model, metal upturned bell and all). Both were made in the 60s and it's obvious that Buffet believed there was a difference and need to market both and that they clearly made an effort to distinquish these 2 instruments that were tonally-similar yet characteristically different. Pretty sure both horns were small bore.
Both were offered for sale at US$3500 each. Not substantially cheaper considering "proper" low C bassets of similar vintage don't go much higher, and you get the "real thing".
It would be so interesting to go back in time and visit Buffet and find out from them first hand as to the rationale behind all this.
Willy
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-07-19 12:08
basset horn,
couple of things:
- I believe the new Buffet Bsthn is a middle sized bore - not as narrow as the Selmer, but not as large as the LeBlanc. I'm not sure if it takes a soprano or alto clarinet mouthpiece, or something different (German Bsthn mouthpieces are a third way). I know someone who plays an older Buffet, and he had to search out a special soprano mouthpiece. Maybe you, or someone else, have more info?
- My guess is that buffet (and others?) continued making the limited range Bsthn for economic reasons: probably was cheaper to turn out a few of these using their alto clarinet machinery and materials, as opposed to ramping up production of the expensive full scale basset horns. I have an old buffet specifications catalog (from the 1970s - "150 Anniversaire, 1825 to 1975") that lists the limited range Bsthn first and offers a real basset horn as a special order item. They're both in the same category as the alto clarinet - same large bore size at the time. To be exact:
Model Number 1501 = Eb Alto Clarinet
Model Number 1721 = F Basset Horn ("same specifications as Model 1501 alto Clarinet but in key of F")
Model Number 1723 = F Basset Horn ("same specifications as Model 1501 alto clarinet but in key of F. Range to low C...This instrument is available on special order only. Write Buffet Crampon for details.")
I once tried one of the Model 1721 instruments and returned it because of its limited range and unacceptable tone quality.
- I agree with you on the large bore v. small bore issue. I play a Leblanc and believe its sound compares well with small bore and original instrument sounds that I have studied in many recordings. I also have a great mouthpiece and try to play with care. You should search this issue on the Klarinet mail list archives (click off that box when you do a regular search). There's a lot of great discussion there on the matter, especially Dan Leeson's views. He insists that a basset horn must have a small bore to be a basset horn, but acknowledges that Leblanc makes fine instruments, he just can't call them basset horns. (He also can't spell "Partita" "correctly," but that's another story.) John Newhill has good counter arguments in his book.
- I think your adjectives for basset horn qualities (veiled, reserved, melacholic) deserve some qualification. Those are the standard conceptions, but you'd have to admit that the Bsthn parts of the Mendelssohn Konzertstuecke also display brightness, playfulness, assertiveness and rambunctiousness. Same with Beethoven's Prometheus music, parts of the Gran Partita, the Stadler Terzetti, and a lot of Strauss' opera parts. There are even parts of Mozart's Requiem (possibly not written by him) that rise into the upper ranges, past melancholy.
So, for me, the beauty of the basset horn lies in its ability to express the whole range of tonal and expressive colors, especially when played right on a full range instrument, regardless of bore size.
Post Edited (2005-07-19 14:41)
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-07-19 22:24
I think the Alto Clarinet is an American beast - they are so rare in Australia as to be almost non-existant. Their Basset Horn cousins are also quite rare here, but our two major opera orchestras (Sydney and Melbourne) have them and bring them out for Strauss and Mozart (of course).
If I were contemplating buying such a beast - I'd probably buy a BH and not an AC.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-07-19 22:40
I agree with you Larry about the cheery and brillant side of the basset horn as exemplied by the Mendelssohn pieces and a couple of concertos by Rolla and Stamitz, I was being simplistic in my description of which for the most part holds true but not always. Mozart would certainly have made good use of its brilliancy had he finished the G basset horn concerto.
I can confirm that the new Buffet takes alto clarinet mouthpiece as I was told so by a player.
Thank you for your info on the Buffet catalogue.
Willy
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-07-20 05:03
Willy,
you're correct about the buffet bore. I guess the older (pre-Prestige) horns were smaller.
- Larry
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2006-12-07 19:47
Attachment: DSC00085.JPG (121k)
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Old subject I know.
But I'm getting ready for the next NAMM show in Jan, and I found these photos I took last year. I thought they may be of interest. I don't believe Buffet sells this low Eb model, but they had it there to play with. It took an alto mouthpiece, which I didn't have, so I could not toot on it.
Wayne Thompson
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-12-07 20:40
The way to think of a basset horn is really a clarinet pitched in F. The classical basset horns are like playing the classical clarinet. Due to the length and where to put the finger holes we get this great sound. I think small bore, large bore, what's the difference they both sound 'otherworldly'.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-07 20:41
I know someone with a Leblanc basset horn, and the lowe joint is made in two parts - the main part carrying the keywork to low E and the 'extension' part with the extra keys to reach the low C - at the join there's a socket ring, but I didn't have this basset horn in that many pieces to see if this join was a standard tenon complete with tenon cork, or if both parts were permanently glued together at this join.
And Leblanc do hint in their earlier catalogues that a basset horn to low Eb was made as well as the usual low C model we all know of. If you have an older Leblanc catalogue with the range chart of all their clarinets, you'll see the range of the basset horn to low Eb next to the standard low C one - the bottom note of the low Eb model is concert Ab (same as the bottom note on a tenor sax) whereas the low C basset horn is F.
Leblanc basset horns have an 18mm bore, as do their alto clarinets.
My old Selmer basset horn (which is pretty much a Buffet copy) has a 16mm bore and takes a Bb mouthpiece. But the current Buffets do indeed use an alto clarinet mouthpiece (onto which alto sax reeds work perfectly).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-12-07 22:39
Older Leblanc basset horns don't have a seperate low extension - just two joints. I wonder when they made the switch?
Is the situation with basset horns analagous to bass clarinets, where there is a choice between low Eb and low C models? Is one considered standard and the other an alternative?
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-12-08 14:24
I have never seen a basset horn to low Eb in any current catalog by any manufacturer. While I'm sure Selmer or Buffet would cheerfully make you one to low Eb if you were willing to pay for it, a basset horn is always keyed to low C.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-08 14:44
Also note that Leblanc low C basses also have the fixed 'extension' on the bottom joint like their basset horns have, though I can't see the point of a basset horn to low Eb as to me, the whole concept of a basset horn is a clarinet pitched in F with the range descending to low C, regardless of bore and mouthpiece size.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-12-08 15:20
While there may not be any "basset horns to low Eb" in current catalogs, that has not always been true. To my mind such an instrument, especially if it had a wide bore and used an alto clarinet mouthpiece, would be an alto clarinet in F, not a basset horn to low Eb. But maybe they thought they could get more money for it if they called it a basset horn.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2006-12-08 15:34
This year I will take an alto mouthpiece to NAMM, and if Francoise Klok brings them again, I will play these two basset horns!
W
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-08 15:47
I think the Buffet Prestige basset horn is the best one (and the best value for money being the least expensive) on the market from a big company (the BIG 3), though it's funny in that it has two C#/G# toneholes - one on the front which is articulated and oe on the side which is fixed.
From an older Buffet catalogue it says it was designed in consultation with Rene Hagmann - maybe he felt the single C#/G# tonehole was too resistant, and some of the covered fingerplates on this earlier model were perforated as on an oboe.
Certainly the Buffet basset horn would be my first choice if I was to go out and buy one tomorrow, even though I'm not normally a Buffet devotee there are some exceptions - their Prestige basset horn, bass clarinet and Eb clarinets being the exceptions for me.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-12-08 20:34
Chris P,
I could have sworn that the Buffet Prestige basset horn was far and away the most expensive of the big three. I think it retails for about $10k; the Selmer and LeBlanc for considerably ($3K to $4K) less.
I can't judge your conclusions about its quality (it sure looks nice), but I'm not sure you're right about the absolute cost.
If I were going to plunk down $10K for a basset horn, I would have bid on Dan Leeson's gold plated Fox monster.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-08 20:52
In the UK the Buffet basset horn is the least expensive at around £4500, then the Leblanc not far above that, and then the Selmer which is double the retail price of the Buffet - a whopping £9000!
Though all woodwind specialists in the UK offer good discounts, so the Buffet is around £3750 and the Selmer is around a more realistic £5900 which is still expensive considering the Buffet is the better instrument.
I was surprised the Buffet is the most expensive in N.America.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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