 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Julian
Date: 2006-04-06 16:34
There was recently some speculation on this board, as to whether the press release stating 'Morrie Backun joins Conn-Selmer to lead Leblanc clarinet development' did indeed mean that Backun would be making their own clarinet. The thread was stopped because nobody had any exact information on this subject.
I can tell you all, that there is going to be a Leblanc/ Backun clarinet very soon. I have been playing especially customised instruments by Backun since Sept 05; but these are not available to the general public. Last weekend I was at the Frankfurt Music Messe, where the proto-type Leblanc/ Backun was being shown. It is a stunning instrument, with some alternative/ extra keys, which makes some 'tricky' passage work much easier to play/ control. The keywork is beautifully presented, silent action, mechanism just wonderful. The intontion true. BUT the one thing that had my attention was the glorious sound that the instrument made. Just GORGEOUS! I really wanted to keep the proto-type, but had to settle for placing an order for two sets of these clarinets.
It is the intention of Leblanc/ Backun to produce these instruments at the same highest possible standard to match the proto-type. I understand that they will be marketed in the next few months, and certainly this year. This is a most exciting and welcome project to the clarinet world; I will wait impatiently for my sets of Leblanc/ Backun!
Leblanc/ Backun artist.
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Author: William
Date: 2006-04-06 16:43
A lesson learned from the clothing industry--change last years perfectly good styles just to sell more new (not necessarily better, but definately different) styles this year to all of us who just have to have the most updated wardrobe to keep up with the Jones, etc, etc, etc, ad nuaseum........Yikes. What we really need is a Backum ligature. Happy shopping at the LeBlanc fashion shoppe.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-06 18:05
"It is a stunning instrument, with some alternative/ extra keys, which makes some 'tricky' passage work much easier to play/ control."
What keys?
"the one thing that had my attention was the glorious sound that the instrument made."
So you liked it better than the "especially customised instruments by Backun" that you play now?
Just curious.
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-06 19:47
I just received a press release in the mail. Sounds interesting. Anything to help the Leblanc name stay alive sounds good to me. I've never purchased from or played on Morrie's equipment but his people are quite knwledgable and helpful. Kudos to him!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-06 19:50
Well....I'm impressed by the fact that Julian Bliss paid us a visit. Thanks Julian for the info and for your great musicianship.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-06 20:03
This must have been the clarinet I played when He was at Peabody's Clarinet Spa day. Yea it played pretty frickin nice!!!!! Intonation was great, the sound was very even, and response was fast! But the sound it was"like budda"! My Yamahas have been pimped by Morrie, This felt super pimped! One of the things I thing Morrie does to a clarinet that makes them really play is evening out the resistance. This allows me to get lots of different colors out of a clarinetsof mine that he's worked on. He's made my Yamahas a joy to play, and made them work even easier, when you're 57 minutes into a 90 minutes hora set you need all the help you can get!!. What he did to my Buffet Bass is astonishing.He has my Buffet Basset horn right now, I can't wait to see what he does with that.
Julian, if he gets my basset horn finished, we should play some Mendelssohn. Hey, when you get old you want bigger cars and bigger clarinets!!!!
If Leblanc can manufacture this clarinet and get it half that good, a lot of the clarinet companies are going to have to go back to the drawing board.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2006-04-06 20:24
Tom, I am not familiar with the expression "like budda"
Please define it.
Does the new instrument also have barrels that look like thread spools or does it have nice sleek lines with or without rings?
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Author: kal
Date: 2006-04-06 20:38
For explanation of the expression "like budda",
1. Travel to local movie rental shop or dvd retailer.
2. Rent or purchase "Saturday Night Live presents The Best of Mike Myers".
3. Select sketches featuring "Coffee Talk with Linda Richman"
(note: Linda Richman is neither rich nor a man. Discuss.)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-06 20:46
I have that tape and love it!!! There are those of us tail end boomers who grew up in the 70s, when refridgerators came in Avacodo, people drank "freeze dried" coffee, and they had this crap that came in tubs called margerine. They used to say that it tasted like butter, and it was supposidly better for you. It was neither!!!! So when my then girl friend, now my wife made me some cookies that used real butter, scales fell from my eyes! Butter is Butter, damn the hardning of the arteries full speed ahead! The morrie clarinet plays like they used butter, full fat, no calorie counting right from the cow Butter! And it's you hear it at bar mitvahs in New York all the time!!!!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-06 21:26
Tom, I wish you hadn't reminded us about avocado-colored kitchen appliances --- along with disco music, probably among the worst features of the '70s...........but we digress. Back to the "bedda, like budda" Backun beefer.
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2006-04-06 21:54
OK, that skit. And Babs Streisand shows up. Voice like buttah.
Frankly I want to sound like Burtah...Burtah Hara
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-04-07 00:50
Riddenour, Combs, Daniels, and now Backun............With the distribution powers of Leblanc and Backun's popularity, it's more money for Leblanc and Morrie. Leblanc sure does jump from one poster child to the next don't they?
Is Leblanc going to introduce the first 10,000 dollar instrument with Backun bells and barrels? People can't afford the Opus so why are they doing this??? I for one am happy for all of you that can't wait to get this new horn....I'm happy to hear about happy clarinet players. But I could care less about this news or the new instrument.
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Backun, Blah, Blah, Blah.
Post Edited (2006-04-07 00:52)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-07 03:15
hey what will they call this one?
if Tom has his way.... the "Super pimp" GREAT
i wish i could afford to have Morrie pimp up my clarinets, but the freelance market here in NZ pays next to nothing, it stinks. i need to get a real job.
until then, i'll have to wait until the Backun/Leblanc clarinet is available 2nd hand....
btw thanks for your report Julian. Nice recording of the Poulenc too....
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: calclar
Date: 2006-04-07 03:37
Just like every other new produst, it will reach critical mass. Massive PR campaign? You see it starting right here. Revolutionary/evolutionary? Unlikely in the extreme.
Read the thread about endorsements - especailly those by OMAR - he knows the business end of things so it seems.
Does Conn/Selmer/LeBlanc have a good reputation in the industry insofar as their business practices and their relationship with their retailers? No. Perhaps that will improve now that LeBlanc/Backun is in some control of PR and the usual ad copy that goes with it. The PR machine that already exists at the Backun website is already impressive so maybe the LeBlanc/Backun partnership will be quite successful in that respect.
It's a fad just like any other new product. Sit back and watch. A prototype a production model does not make - especially when it comes to clarinets.
Have fun!
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-04-07 08:22
bufclar writes: "People can't afford the Opus so why are they doing this?"
I think it's more a matter that people don't see the need to afford the Opus, so long as it offers no clear advantage over less expensive instruments.
As has been remarked many times on this site, clarinets are much cheaper than most instruments. Even when you factor in the need to buy a pair rather than one, they are competitive. German instruments are already much more expensive than Boehm; there is no reason why a premium priced ($10000 or whatever) instrument should not be successful, provided it is demonstrably better.
There have been various comments on this site over the years to the effect that the top German instruments are better (to some people's ears anyway) than the top Boehms. Nobody has ever managed to answer the obvious question as to whether this is because the German design is intrinsically better, or simply because they cost twice as much so of course they are better. Perhaps Backun/Leblanc will finally answer that question.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-04-07 09:42
Geez, what a bunch of cynics. I say kudos to MB, JB and Leblanc for trying to advance the state of the art.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2006-04-07 11:20
Well, I think it's a good thing Leblanc are at least looking around to see who will help them make their great instruments even better; who knows, this instrument could be good. It might even bring Buffet down!
It's not really appropriate to have an opinion about it yet, as they're still just making it and Julian has given us only limited information.
Hold your judgement until you try it.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-07 11:31
The way I look at it:
After the clarinet is widely available as a commercial product and the initial glow is over, it will have to survive the normal business process to continue as a model.
If it is a significantly better tool to make clarinet music than anything on the market, it'll do just fine, whatever the price. I think we all sometimes forget that the instrument is just a tool; I work in the computer industry, and as a professional I'm amazed at how much people spend on their home computers - especially those that essentially read email and surf the web. I and the companies I work for don't spend all that much on my hardware tools, and the software better have a reasonable ROI. The hardware & software are just tools; they're paying me to use the tools, not paying for the tools to use me.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-04-07 12:30
Mark:
As a fellow software development manager, I must also report that some of the people I've paid were tools.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-07 12:35
.....the important thing is not so much "how good is the prototype" (which i believe is good) but "can they make lots of them this good" (an issue Julian Bliss did comment on). Of course, there is also the issue of "everybody likes something different". i do believe some of you are being a bit cynical here- i don't use any of the Backun products, but i have no doubt at all that he could design a better clarinet.
"buffclar" or whatever your name is.... Leblanc "jumps from one poster child to the next"? it's more than 20 years since Mr Ridenour designed the Opus etc for them. Quite a long time if you consider how much the acoustic design of the instrument has evolved since the 1950s
Julian Bliss- could you describe the new keywork? here's my wish list....
-automatic bell key (that closes when register key down- to flatten b/c and raise low f/e)(i believe Selmer has something similar as an option)
-extra thumb key to open B flat trill key, with rollers to enable easy slide back to register key
- the Reform Boehm set up that allows easy b-c# or f#-g# trills without resorting to articulated c#/g# key
still, the standard Boehm key work would keep me happy if only intonation was nearer the standard flute players enjoy!
donald
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-07 12:50
It's the nature in a profession that requires a piece of equipment to be in that profession that there will inevitably be arguments about the nature and quality of the "hardware" that is involved. You can't be a clarinetist without a clarinet. But "buzz" and marketing is an absolute must if anyone is going make and market better tools for us to use in making music.
Lets look at the leading 4 manufacturers: Buffet, sells tons of R13 model clarinets, in my opinion that's the least desirable model they make. IMHO, the RC bore instrument is a vastly superior clarinet. Dose it sell better than the R-13 in the USA, no. I know that it sells very well in Europe. Why do Americans buy a model that few other clarinetists in the world play? Marketing, price, pitch, my teacher told me to? All the Buffets that I own are RCs, I've sold all the R-13s
Selmer: has introduced a bunch of different models over the last few years. I like the sound I can get on a signature, but for me, I find it a bit mono-chromatic. The recital it's just too damn heavy. I think they make 2 other "pro" models but I don't have any experience playing those.
Yamaha, Makes 3 pro models, I like and play and endorse, the SEV. It has the balance of characteristics that I find, gets out of my way when performing. The other models, the CSV and the CSV-G never excited me like the SEV. Other Yamaha artists feel about the CSV and G, like I do about the Sev. It's totally personal taste. Someone mentioned that Yamaha hasn't had anything new out, the G is the new one. It's been out in the last few years.
Leblanc, of all the four. I've never found anything they make to my taste. I had access a few years back to a Concerto and an Opus. I never felt they were in the league as the other 3, I have no idea if it was the design or the execution. Eddy and Larry play them, I've seen them both live, they were actually Leblancs and not "imposter" instruments. Those guys certainly made those clarinets sound pretty good. It seems to me that Leblanc appears that they are the latest company to "kick it up a notch". When one company does that, everyone improves their instruments, provided that we the consumers evaluate them with non-emotional, semi-scientific, moderately-unbiased, partially opened minds.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: calclar
Date: 2006-04-07 15:18
Marketing, endorsements, (which this thread essentially does), etc, does not address the fact that regardless of what people say about their impressions of a prototype, there is no way to evalutete what production models will play like. That is key to the manufacture of anything let alone clarinets.
This issue trumps all others as I see it. One can play the prototype of any piece of equipment but the key question in manufacturing is whether multiples of a prototype - a prototype that has been tweaked beyond tweaked - bear any resemblance to the original or originals.
I have played all brands of clarinets . I remember when Buffet trotted around their prototype of the Vintage model all around the US a few years ago. I and others thought it to be truly one of, if not the best clarinet that they had ever produced even though I did not play Buffet. Then I started playing the production models, tweaked and non-tweaked. They were not the same instrument by any stretch of the imagination as far as I could tell.
After talking to a couple of well known manufacturers , they made me aware of this exact problem of which I was nt aware. I don't see how this case would be any different. Would Julian or anyone else that has experience in this subject like to elaborate for us?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-07 15:56
Oh man. I want one of those. Naturally, I'm drooling. Thanks, Julian--and thanks for picking a barrel for me while you were at Morrie's.
I hope I can afford one of those beauties. Perhaps I'll have to sell the new Opus II when these babies come out.
GBK, no need to comment on my gearitis.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-07 16:35
Any links to the press release?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: BornAgainClarinetist
Date: 2006-04-10 06:25
I'm really glad to see that Leblanc has gained some new innovation. In the last five years I've tried Leblancs, I couldn't get past the acoustics and the sound of the clarinets. Also I just didn't get that "In touch with the clarinet" feel that say I can get from my buffets and the new selmer signature clarinets.
I can tell you one thing. Those current leblancs have crazy nice intonation in general though.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-10 13:54
Leblanc has always been known for their excellent intonation.
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2006-04-10 15:16
I hope they do not go too much over to the "dark side."
The American/French sound with its concentration of colors is giving way to the German dark sound. An engineering friend said it sounds like a standing square wave on an oscilloscope. I think I got the general idea.
A fad?
Internationalization?
I thought long and hard before posting this. I know it is heretical.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2006-04-10 16:49
"Buffet, sells tons of R13 model clarinets, in my opinion that's the least desirable model they make. IMHO, the RC bore instrument is a vastly superior clarinet Dose it sell better than the R-13 in the USA, no. I know that it sells very well in Europe. Why do Americans buy a model that few other clarinetists in the world play?"
Tom would you like to give any reasons why you made this statement? Why is the RC so much better? I have an RC and don't like it because it has a much thinner, brighter sound than an R13 in the upper clarion. I can get the sound of an RC on a R13 but can not get the sound of an R13 on a RC. I think the R13 gives you more color options and the RC does not. You made such a strong statement (Vastly superior) about this but you didn't give any real points as to why you believe this.
My main problem with this new Leblanc or the previous ones is how much they hype their instruments...... it's leblanc or the people who play them (recent post on here...."how many opus players here?) Buffet is the top seller and they don't market their instruments nearly as hard as leblanc as far as I know. I read things people write on this board about how happy they are with the opus and a backun bell (brenda) and now word gets out about a new leblanc and people say "oh I got to get one of those". Why? Whats wrong with what you have now? And if there is something wrong then why all the hype about what you have?
I'm not trying to attack anyone here.....I just really react badly to hype and speculation. I know Jullian liked it but I'm sure he would sound great on any clarinet. I would also suspect that it was not much different than the Morrie tweaked clarinets he has now. I also see on this post that someone said I'm being cynical beacuse I'm not excited about this new clarinet. I'm not being cynical, I'm just choosing to stay calm about this or any other new product. Please don't throw out a label because I disagree or because I'm not excited about this new instrument. I will do the same and call you foolish for defending a clarinet that you have not played or seen.
If it's really spectacular than I will probably get a pair but we do not know that right now do we?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-04-10 18:25
"Why do Americans buy a model that few other clarinetists in the world play?"
It's not the USA here, and most people here play the R13 but very few the RC. I think the RC is not available here except a special order.
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Author: BornAgainClarinetist
Date: 2006-04-10 18:32
I totally agree with the above statement. I mean my R-13 clarinets aren't perfect by any means but, when I practice I never think of any of my issues being the actually clarinet but all to do with myself. For me I this is what it means to find the "perfect clarinet" when you don't have actually think about the clarinet you are holding in your hands but focus on the music and getting passed the clarinet.
In response to what someone else said about the R-13 being a crappy instrument. I honestly kind of think it is.... until it's Brannenized. I hated my A clarinet until after the brannens redid it and I think a lot of people feel this way as well whom have had their horns worked on by the Brannens. I don't plan on change clarinets until after I will a real playing job (that's a few years away in my opinion) but I can see how others can switch.
After all.. Take my Bb R-13. I think they are like 2400 now brand new from a big place like weiner or woodwind and brasswind. 125 for a chadash barrel, 450 for a overhaul by the brannens you are already up to 2975 just for a regular R-13. For those who play prestige it can easy go past five thousand per horn. So if leblanc offers a horn that has been very well built that doesn't need all the extra junk a buffet clarinet tends to need then I can see it being a serious competitor.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-10 19:48
Over there years, all the time I was in the U.S Army Field band, I played R13s. Really nice ones, usually redone by Marc Jacobi, a very fine clarinet technician in Philadelphia. I never said the couldn't work. About 2 years before I retired, I went to International musical supliers and spent a weekend with Lisa( she always has great buffets) playing through 20-30 R13s. Picked a stellar set and figured this could be the clarinets that last the rest of my playing days. I played them for the same reason Luke skywalker uses a light saber instead of a blaster--- may teacher used it, and so did his teacher before him. And God forbid, who am I to argue against something the great clarinet gods deemed to be the one true clarinet.
After I retired in 1999 (at 39) I played a Yamaha Sev. This clarinet, had bigger more flexible tone and tuned better. FOR ME!! R13s always had a Rattle in the sound when you started to approach the "red line". The Yamaha allowed me to play more " Bi-polaresque" I routinely will play, pieces like Bocolique on a concert then play klezmer tunes and gypsy Jazz. I don't like to change set ups once I start a show. After playing the Yamahas for a few years I tried a set of RCs and they had some similar characteristics that of the SEVs . So I bought those also, I still like the flexiblity of the SEV over the RCs but I still practice and play the RCs ocasionaly . I've since sold the R13s.
Since all this is my opinion, I'll ad this which will sound a little immature, I think a great clarinet sound is purple, when a clarinet gives me a good purple I can make red-purple, blue purple, or red or blue. I felt the R13s are just too red for me. For me the Selmers are too blue. I could get purple on the r13s and the signature, but I want purple in the middle. Remember this is totally subjective. You might think it's orange! The Backun-Leblanc prototype was deep purple and easy to play.
I think alittle bit about how I approach playing. I play a close mouthpiece, 103 tip with a length of either 36 or 38. I play double lip and I put a lot in my mouth. I don't use a particularly hard reed, 3.5 V12s or Evolutions. Most clarinetist who pick up my stuff wonder how I can play something like this.
It's funny, I've done photography and clarinet all my life and it amazes my how much we talk about the tools. It's as if the tools have magic power to create music by themselves. I was lucky enough to take the Yosemite workshop with Ansel Adams back in 1977, we were all walking around taking photos and Ansel would find us and look at our Polaroids. I was shooting with an old 4x5 deardorf, for those not into old cameras, this was an old wooden thing (old timey) camera that load sheet film in. About 3 of us were in the same immediate area as St. Ansel, when a guy with a new fangled Nikon f2 35 mm camera came up to one of the other students that was using a 35 mm and asked him about his camera. This student suggested that one of the world's greatest photographers was standing over there and could probably answer his questions for him. This person said, "The old guy over there, he's using some sort of antique, what's he gonna know about this?" Had he asked Ansel would have probably shot a photo with that camera that would have been the best photo ever taken with that camera.
At the end of the week once Ansel found out I was a clarinetist, I would go back and practice in the afternoon and the light wasn't great, I ended up in his Carmel home, there I met Mr. Mazzeo, and I played Medelsohn concert pieces with Ansel on piano, and Rosy on Clarinet and Basset horn. That was on amazing day. Rosy was a master photographer and Ansel originally wanted to be a concert pianist. Boy, I digress, oh yea equipment! Both these guys were past what are you playing on or taking pictures with. There were into Who do you listen to and who do you like to look at? What are you trying to say! Ansel once Kvetched that nobody ever goes up to a painter, and asked them what kind of brushes they use. To which Mazzeo added " or what mouthpiece, reed or clarinet did you play on some concert"
We are all at the mercy of the manufactures of clarinet stuff. Everyone except Mr. Rossi. A great player that can make his own clarinet anyway he chooses! When someone comes up with something new we should celebrate it! I guarantee it will be better than what we play now, or it won't be!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
Post Edited (2006-04-10 21:55)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-04-10 20:40
Tom Puwalski wrote:
> there I
> met Mr. Matseo, and I played Medelsohn concert pieces with
> Ansel on piano, and Rosy on Clarinet and Basset horn.
Matseo? Do you mean Rosario Mazzeo?
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2006-04-10 20:59
Tom:
>> I ended up in his Carmel home, there I met Mr. Matseo, and I played >>Medelsohn concert pieces with Ansel on piano, and Rosy on Clarinet and >>Basset horn. That was on amazing day. Rosy was a master >>photographer and Ansel originally wanted to be a concert pianist.
You're a very lucky person................
Matt
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-10 22:40
(Disclaimer - I am maker of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
I enjoy this thread and the many fascinating stories but my pragmatic side must come to fore and indicate that at the moment we are putting forward conjecture without facts on the new LeBlanc instrument. I respect Julian but he too has not seen or played the production model.
From my own personal experience it is a definite leap of faith from the prototype to the production model for any clarinet. We do not have the budget to make oodles of prototypes and ours are more battle scarred than most by the time changes are made. There is no doubt that the we hope that the prototype will be to the best manufacturing techniques possible, closely resemble the prototype which we send to the factory for production but this is no certainty.
Morrie should be commended for his innovation and bringing more science to the art of making barrel, bells, etc. but unless there is a complete retooling at the LeBlanc factory he is still constrained by the limits of technology presently available to reproduce his prototype. Invariably there will be a spectrum of performance within a product line due to manufacturing techniques and variables such as the quality wood.
Unless there is a serious quantum leap in instrument performance, or a significant price advantage by one company, the traditional distribution of professional level clarinet sales - 75-85% by one maker - any new introduction faces an uphill battle without serious price competition to gain market penetration.
I dare say that many BB members are independent thinkers when it comes to clarinet choices but a successful introduction and company must reach and convince a broader spectrum of less independent thinkers that their clarinet is better in order to have a successful new product line.
When introduced it will be interesting to listen to critiques but these too will be biased by the length of time from introduction and the particular clarinet tested. Invariably manufacturers will bring their best examples of the clarinet to introduction venues.
Competition is good in any market and hopefully LeBlanc will raise the bar for clarinet hardware which other manufacturers will have to meet or exceed.
L. Omar Henderson
BTW - Tom, your color analogy and "like budda" makes more sense to me than our general terms of "Dark", "Bright", etc.
Post Edited (2006-04-10 23:59)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-11 18:56
As I understand the press release, Morrie is heading the development of professional to intermediate clarinets for Leblanc and in turn Leblanc is going to get rights to market the Backun products in the US. But, here is a link to what I read:
http://www.pro-music-news.com/html/11/e60322co.htm
So, we're not talking about just a new clarinet--but perhaps several new clarinets including intermediate.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-04-12 12:41
(Disclaimer - I am the maker of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
I wish Morrie and LeBlanc well in their ventures to put several new clarinets on the market. IMO (that awful word) the market for intermediate clarinets is even more "closed" than for professional level instruments. Again, a new clarinet that is "head and shoulders" above the competition, or a very good clarinet that is significantly cheaper "may" have a chance for success. In the American market, at least, IMO, the leading reasons for brand or model success are (sad to say), in descending order: price, name, peer or teacher recommendation, quality.
Independent thinkers and evaluators are even less prominent in the intermediate category and purchases or recommendations are based more exclusively on the teacher's suggestions, historical precedent, or school or program requirements. In talking with band or music program directors at many state music educator's conferences for the past several years it has become commonplace to hear that entire programs or districts recommend certain brands of plastic clarinets for marching bands and even "require" certain high intermediate or "professional level" brands of wood clarinets for concert band or symphonic band use by the students.
Private teachers who are themselves independent thinkers in terms of clarinet brand loyalty or model evaluation may suggest varied intermediate or alternate professional level clarinets for their students but they are in the small minority of the teachers or players that support one major clarinet maker. Selection at music stores is also more limited for certain brands because of the sales volume of certain brands or the models normally sold.
The cascade of recommendation for either professional level or intermediate level brands or models seems to follow the established line of: teacher's teacher's teacher recommending, teacher's teacher recommending, teacher recommending to student, peer pressure among students. If this hierarchy is not interrupted by an independent thinker and evaluator or a superior model or cheaper price for a very good model it tends to continue unabated.
L. Omar Henderson
P.S. My lawyer, also a clarinet player, has suggested that I add the following to my post (s): "The views expressed are purely my own and do not necessarily represent the views of the GH-Corporation, LBD Corporation, Doctor's Products or the Forte' Instrument Group and any recommendation of manufacturer's brands or models are personal preferences. Marketplace evaluations are based on market research and personal experience which may or may not be accurate representations and may be biased by personal interpretation. (my own Yada, Yada, Yada)
Post Edited (2006-04-12 13:27)
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2006-06-06 07:26
Have you seen the picture on the leblanc site? You can’t see much…but the part they show…make one's mouth water.......
http://www.gleblanc.com/
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-06-06 14:46
Just a tease! But, it looks a lot like my Opus II with the Backun barrel. I'm anxious to see the whole thing--and to know how much it costs.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-06-06 15:56
An Opus II with a new A/G# key linkage........ok, they have my attention.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-06-06 19:14
Post Edited (2006-06-06 20:26)
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Author: xxColorMeJoshxx
Date: 2006-06-06 22:10
Julian, I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your performance at the Queen's Jubilee a few years back. It was very inspirational.
-Josh
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Author: xxColorMeJoshxx
Date: 2006-06-06 22:14
I'm absolutely amazed that this board got into the subject of Barbra Streisand without me bringing it up! I just love her.
Post Edited (2006-06-06 22:15)
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-06-07 21:04
How would the sound of this new clarinet differ/ distinguish itself from the Eaton sound and colouring, Julian?
Many thanks
Nick
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Author: ElBlufer
Date: 2006-09-19 22:01
I think I will bring this back to life, as WWBW is now offering this clarinet on their website! The link follows:
http://www.wwbw.com/CustomLists/CustomListDisplay.aspx?lid=190
My Setup:
R13 Clarinet (Ridenour Lyrique as my backup/marching instrument)
Walter Grabner K11 mouthpiece
Rico Reserve 3.5's
Bonade ligature
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 00:15
1.It looks so ugly!Mr.Backun is maybe a good technician but doesn't he have any visual artistic sense? It(bell) reminds me of that claymation character. Now it needs a heavy black stain.
2.Leblanc Symphonie and Legacy are made by Leblanc +Backun but the price difference is $2,300,other than the material cost ,which is probably less than a few hundred dollars,how can they justify the price difference.?
*********
This is what I like to see in the clarinet makers.
Each manufacture tries and improves their existing model.
If they can do better than before,they should incoperate this to the current model instead of introducing "new" model every few years with price hike of 50% or more.
Clarinetist are not dumb,whether professional or amateur like me.If they build a really good instument it will sell and it will have good reputation like R13 now.
If the new design is that good, they should discontinue whatever they've
been manufacturing until now. They can use same design and mechanism for the less expensive model too. But they don't do those things.Why?
Because they are not sure if this is going to a hit or not.They are waiting for the public to get hooked,if not, they will go back to the older model as if nothing happened. And the story repeats...
Is Legacy next Tosca?
Post Edited (2006-09-20 01:39)
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2006-09-20 00:41
Hello Koo,
I am sorry that you do not like the appearance of my design (or perhaps it is the color)
My fundamental interest is always how equipment plays including tone, intonation, mechanical reliability, feel, fluidity and control. (among other considerations)
I would like to know if you have tried the new Leblanc designed by Backun Clarinets or if you are really evaluating them only from a distant picture, on a website? I can say that many top players seem to have a very different opinion of our products, and use them with great pride, but wouldn't the musical world be a boring place if we all played only the same setup and tried to create the same voice?
If you have not tried them, may I suggest that you do so when you have an opportunity, it would be interesting to hear what you think once you have had a chance to actually play the instruments. I always appreciate comments, suggestions and constructive criticism of my work, but usually find it of greatest value when players have tried it.
Regards,
Morrie Backun
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-20 00:55
(Disclaimer - I am designer of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
I wish Morrie and LeBlanc good luck in the marketplace. If indeed the instruments play in a superior way then they will be a market success even at the asking price. There are "early adopters" which must have the newest and the most innovative items, there will be the "wannabes" who think that the price mark makes the player, and then there will be the greater majority who will evaluate and purchase, according to their economic means, the instrument that is the best playing and sounding instrument. To be an economic success it is this last group which must shoulder the major burden of sales.
The Backun barrel and bell designs are distinctive and the beauty, or not, is in the eye of the beholder. The major factors are the interior bore taper of the barrel and bell, mass, and distinctive elements such as the groove in the interior of the bell which IMO has positive effects on register shifts, ease of articulation, and tuning and intonation. The material may make subtle difference in tone and timbre? These acoustic innovations need not be encased in any particular shape or design element.
It will be difficult for a new and relatively expensive clarinet to gain market share in the professional clarinet segment of the marketplace and therefore to be an economic success. One maker now controls 70-80% of this segment and a newcomer would have to gain an additional 8-15% in order to be an economic success given developmental costs, retooling and added materials costs, and advertising-marketing expenses. (My own economic analysis)
I am biased of course but I too feel there should be more trickle down of innovation and design improvements to student and intermediate clarinets which would add little if any cost to the finished clarinet after initial retooling costs. Perhaps they will?
The acceptance curve and play testing reviews will be interesting to read.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 01:05
Mr.Backun
I'm very well aware of your reputation. I really hope your cooperation with Leblanc produces very good result. I will try your new baby if I have a chance to in a near future.I have Leblanc LL which has intonation problem with the original barrel,but after different set up(Chadash barrel+Grabner mp) it sounds better than any other clarinet I had a chance to.)
I'm all for your dedication to the playability but appearance is important too
As you know design is the #1 factor when customers are choosing a car.
Some designs look fresh and nice when it is new but unless it has innate
beauty, it will become boring and ugly like old neckties.
What I mean is that without sacrificing your product performance you can still make the clarinet beautiful.Something gives you pleasure just looking at it. Do you know that Stradivari violins value that much not because of the sound but because of the workmanship and great looks?
If you need any feed back about your design,please contact me off line.
violin maker and (former) physicist.
Post Edited (2006-09-20 01:12)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2006-09-20 01:11
Koo
Beauty is indeed in the eye of teh beholder as the Doc. has said. I for one find Morrie's bells and barrels to be very beautiful to look at. The colour and grain of the wood is a large part of the visual appeal. And I know several other clarinet players, also owners of Morrie's products, who are of similar opinion. Have you actually seen any in the "flesh" or just in pictures?
Marcia
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 01:17
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder in some degrees.But I believe that ,whether visual or performing art,there are general consensus about what is beautiful or not.
Without this there will be no Da Vinci , Monet, Mozart or Chopin......
Great art is great art. It is not that subjective as you might think.
About Backun's barrel and bell
There's no doubt the wood is pretty.What I meant was the shape and continuity with the upper/lower joint and barrel/bell.
It may sound beautiful, but at least to my taste it doesn't look good.
It looks like someone in formal wear and sneaker with a base ball cap.
Or mustach and breast(excuse my raw analogy)It looks very good separately,but not together.
violin maker
Post Edited (2006-09-20 01:33)
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-09-20 01:33
Well I, for one, am so excited I could puke puppies! I cannot WAIT to get my hands on one and give it a go. I think they are absolutely STUNNING, and I've always been a die-hard LeBlanc fan, so I can't imagine that I won't absolutely adore them.
Price is a consideration, of course, but it seems to me that the Cadenza will turn out to be a clarinet worthy of any professional setting, and until I can comfortably afford a Legacy or Symphonie, I would be happy to play one in any gig. (And the price point isn't really all that far off from what an R13 was not too very long ago, before they went apecrackers over their pricing.)
I do wonder, though, will the aux. Ab/Eb lever be an option?
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2006-09-20 01:38
Koo,
First of all Mories products are quite beautiful I dare say and I hope his new clarinets do very well. I have tried both barrels and bells and while the price was to high for me to justify keeping any of the products, they played very well and were great to look at. It seems you don't like the clarinet to have other colors then a black finish which is not the original color of grenadilla wood anyways.
Secondly, I'm at a loss about your comment about Stratavarious Violins. Their value is in the sound and age of the instrument more than anything else. I find it strange that a violin maker would make such a statement. If what you say is true then why don't you make a copy of a strad and sell it for a million plus? Maxim Vengerof is performing the Beethoven Concerto with the Green Bay Symphony next month. Maybe you could take a copy of his strad up there and see if Maxim would like to switch if the sound does not matter? I feel safe in guessing that Maxim would continue to play his instrument regardless of what it looks like.
It's too bad you don't like Morries products because they look "strange". A lot of fabulous players love them and you might be missing out.
I'd much rather have an ugly instrument that sounds and plays like a dream then one that looks great(what ever that means) and sounds like crud.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-20 01:49
Imagine the reaction to Impressionism, Cubist, Picasso from art critics of the time at first sight? We have a mental impression of the clarinet shape formed in our heads from history. The strong reaction to the Backun products is similar but bad art or good art must stand the test of time and we are early in this process. The design of barrels has changed dramatically in the last 5 years by the present custom barrel makers - outwardly- and rings have been all but abandoned. Are they more beautiful or ugly? Is continuity the goal or is discontinuity more beautiful? Not a plug for Backun products but they have been successful in the marketplace without doubt. Is it form or function that sells them - or both?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 02:42
Ryan
I don't want to go into the debate about violins because you have to know the inner workings about violin business. Some Stradivari sounds good. But
it will still commands millions even if it sounds worse than some German factory violins.(This is true.)Dealers want you to believe sound quality is roughly proportional to the price.I know a little bit about those business. I've been a maker,restorer
and fine violin dealer for 22 years.
Post Edited (2006-09-20 03:49)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-09-20 02:47
A very famous and very wise musician that I played chamber music with once said something that has always stuck with me regarding the subject of aesthetics in art, especially music.
They said that the most authentic and ultimately revealing way for any individual to subjectively evaluate music, since it is essentially an aural experience*, was to always listen with one's ears rather than with one's eyes.
Perhaps upon reflection, many might find the same essential truth in this great musician's statement that I have. To be as literal as possible, beauty in music is not in the eye of the beholder insomuch as it is in the ear of the beholder.
From my point of view, any improvement in how the music ultimately sounds is not just an important thing, it is the only thing.
Gregory Smith
*This excludes those pieces of music that are specifically meant to use choreography by the player, electronic visual displays (Scriabin), etc, as part of an artistic equation.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 05:18
Intonation :true
Keywork:silent,wonderful
Sound:gorgeous
Do we want anything more ?
Did we finally,as humans,reached perfection in clarinet making?
Or was it just disguised advertisement?
Shouldn't he have used disclaimer?
Post Edited (2006-09-20 05:20)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2006-09-20 05:27
Morrie Backun/Leblanc clarinets are now listed on the WWBW web site.
Top model $5400 plus!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-09-20 07:15
i personally don't like the visual appearance of Backun products, but i've never considered that a major factor when considering purchase of a bell/barrel etc. My girlfriend has a Backun bell that definately works a trick on my R13 b flat! I am unfortunately not in a position to finance a bell, or a new clarinet, or a $500 mouthpiece.
that being said, it's nice to discover i'm not alone in this opinion.
All respect to Mr Backun (who i'm sure doesn't care for one seccond what i think) but i don't like the knobly bits.
donald
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-20 10:48
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> Shouldn't he have used disclaimer?
His name and the name on the clarinet is the same. I believe that's sufficient as a disclaimer.
You decided to say you thought the clarinet was ugly and that aesthetics influence the sound; Morrie replied that he was sorry you felt that way and that his concern went beyond just the aesthetics. Should he not have responded to your post, based as it is on ignorance of how it plays?
Whether or not you like the way it plays is much more interesting to me than your opinion that it's ugly.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-09-20 11:05
Let's not miss the point of the above observation. In addition to the performance of the product, we (that is the consuming musician buyers) are in many ways influenced by looks. Do guitars really have to have Amboyna wood backs or pearl inlays?
Perhaps this would have been a better back channel discussion between Chung and Morrie from the outset.
Another observation: I know at least one person who has a beautiful, heavily contoured, Cocobolo Backun barrel that has a smooth transition from register to register but lacks projection - now why did this person spend $300 for a barrel that only does half its job?????
and by the way......mustaches and breast?............have any photos?
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2006-09-20 11:18)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 11:44
To MC ,above
>Shouldn't he have used disclaimer?
I meant Julian not Mr.Backun.
Sorry about not being clear on this.
I didn't say aesthetics influence the sound.
I just said it looked ugly. You(he) said one thing,I said another.
Form and function goes together.You cannot really separate them.
All the successful achievements,musical instuments or not, thru out the history, testify that.
Post Edited (2006-09-20 12:00)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-09-20 12:20
New features help sell established brand names.
Just turning out the same, excellent product will often lead to declining shares in an innovative market.
There are many of us that search for "Excalibur" among relics of the past.
Others cling to a hope of engineering miracles to solve essential problems.
Phil Woods tells a great story of his early professional years, playing at a strip joint on 7th Avenue... ten iterations of "Harlem Nocturene" a night wore him down. Across the street Charlie Parker had his second trio working out, with BYrd on BAritone.
The big horn was in poor repair, and Phil offered use of his Alto to CP.
After that set, Charlie complemented the sound of the instrument.
At which point, Phil decided the mouthpiece was just fine, and maybe he didn't need a new horn after all.
He returned and blew the *hi& out of Harlem Nocturne before returning home to a new practice regimen.
******
It's a gorgeous tool that LeBlanc is selling.
If it means the owner will practice more, and make their best noise - great.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-20 12:52
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> I meant Julian not Mr.Backun.
Read the last line of Julian's post. I clearly states he is a Backun/Leblanc artist.
> I didn't say aesthetics influence the sound.
Sure you did because you state again:
> Form and function goes together.You cannot really separate
> them.
Which says "aesthetics influence sound"; aesthetics (a conception of beauty) most certainly affect the form of the instrument, the form of the instrument affects the function of the instrument, and the function of the instrument is to produce sound. My point - it really IS what you said.
> Post Edited (2006-09-20 12:00)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 13:07
To MC
Your logic is somewhat flawed.
Some form of the instrument affects the function of the instruments.
Some form of the instrument does NOT affect the function of the instruments.
You simplified this very complicated subject too much and tries black and white logic.
When we talked about art or beauty ,the difference are sometimes less than hair's thickness.These things are not necessarily affects the sound
negatively.But eye for beauty is born with not learned,so if you don't have
it,there is no point discussing finer aspects any further.
Post Edited (2006-09-20 13:08)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-20 14:06
(Disclaimer- I am a designer of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets and Power Barrel)
Not to belabor the point - Oh, why not! The innovations (or function) of the Backun barrels and bells are internal - the tapering of the bore of the barrel and bell and the groove - our Tuned Resonance Acoustic Chamber (TRAC (TM))- and perhaps resonance hole in the bell. There also may be aspects of mass and material but the external shape has little or nothing to do with the functional aspects.
My own adventures with the Power Barrel do have something to do with the external shape but this is a functional element using the Helmholtz Resonator physics principal. These excursions also led me off on a tangent about external shapes of barrels and their contribution to the frequency spectrum produced. These experiments indicated that external surface shape (within general shape parameters for the element), not the holes in the Power Barrel which have functional aspect, has negligible effect on frequency patterns produced. Similar experiments with our bells indicated that external shape of the bell had the same result. Therefore, the external shape is up to the maker to design and not a functional element. These elements, as mentioned, could be cloaked in a traditional looking barrel or bell design or have some distinctive styling. Form in this sense has nothing to do with function but may influence the selling appeal or not for the styling elements.
Morrie can correct me if I am wrong but his distinctive barrel and bell outward designs have little or nothing to do with the function of the parts. They are distinctive, some like them and some do not, and therefore easily recognizable from the norm. Whether they are beautiful or ugly will depend on the individual, a knowledgeable art critic, or historians to determine. Thanks to Gregory Smith for bringing us back to reality that the sound is the most important issue and not the outward appearance of any instrument.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-20 14:32
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> But eye for beauty is born with not learned,so if
> you don't have
> it,there is no point discussing finer aspects any further.
I'm sorry, I have to disagree wholeheartedly with both your premises here, that an appreciation for beauty is something that you're either born with or not, and there is no point in discussing it further.
I guess all those music, art, architecture, literature, etc. appreciation classes are just wasted time for those that are unlucky enough to be born without the "beauty" gene. Your premise would also imply that beauty must be static, too.
But I've decided not to discuss it further.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-20 14:38
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> Some form of the instrument affects the function of the
> instruments.
>
> Some form of the instrument does NOT affect the function of the
> instruments.
Of course I simplified - I've been an engineer for 30 years involved in form & function of various things. It's wonderful when there is a confluence of form & function and something is "beauiful" as a result (whatever "beautiful" means - in many cases, it is "what we've been taught to expect").
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-09-20 14:58
Disclaimer..I make and sell barrels
You CAN effect some sonic differences by altering the shape and contour of the ++ outside++ the barrel, or by changing the ++material++.
That being said, the interior is of course the most important.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-09-20 16:51)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-20 16:19
Sorry for this digression from the topic. Allan, my investigations on shape included flat, angular, and rounded. The frequency spectrum was very similar. I believe that Allan is referring to sound projection and perceived differences in sound. The angle of projection does affect the sound perceived by the human ear but this effect with a point source such as a barrel or bell is only apparent within a few feet of the source and at audience distance, or at my 10 foot microphone distance, these differences were minimal due to projection angles.
The player factor is possibly important because there is a constant feed back loop between what he/she hears and the adjustments that they make to the forthcoming sound of the instrument which are under their control. So, close projection angle differences in this sense influence the player who in turn influences the sound. This is a difficult parameter to evaluate.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-09-20 23:04
Old Geezer wrote:
> Morrie Backun/Leblanc clarinets are now listed on the WWBW web
> site.
>
> Top model $5400 plus!
>
2 (beautiful) Backun bells + 2 (beautiful) Backun barrels + a top French clarinet + a top of the line BAM case
Compared to a Tosca or Opus II or Signature + 2 top aftermarket bells + 2 top aftermarket barrels + a top aftermarket case, the price is just about right in line with what others charge. The surprise is that a Backun-designed instrument would be offered for a price which is not actually at a premium to what other major producers are selling new instruments for, given the quality of the Backun materials, craftspersonship, reputation, musicality, and reputation of quality that will probably mean that the instrument holds value over time much better than competitors. The $5700 asking price, in this context, might actually be a bargain.
George
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-20 23:37
This Legacy's price makes Peter Eaton clarinet look real bargain at $3,395.
I heard that WWBW has Eaton International model now.
Post Edited (2006-09-20 23:38)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-09-21 00:39
so....... anyone have any more detailed pictures or have one of their own?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-21 02:05
Does the Legacy barrel and bell have a Leblanc logo or Backun?
If Leblanc,it won't be Backun.
If Backun,it won't be Leblanc.![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Post Edited (2006-09-21 02:07)
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-09-21 02:31
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> Does the Legacy barrel and bell have a Leblanc logo or Backun?
>
> If Leblanc,it won't be Backun.
> If Backun,it won't be Leblanc.
>
>
> Post Edited (2006-09-21 02:07)
Woops sorry. I didn't zoom into the picture. The barrel and bell are stamped Backun. So I would still think its a Leblanc Legacy designed by Morrie Backun...just like the description, right?
Post Edited (2006-09-21 02:32)
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Author: robertgh
Date: 2006-09-21 03:55
Looks aside, I bet more than a few of us are eagerly awaiting two things: the chance to test play one ourselves and the chance to hear one in the hands of a gifted player. As the concert season swings into gear, the hardcore "horn spotters" should have their work cut out for them ( yo, is that a Legacy, a Symphonie, or a pimped-out R13? Gimme those binoculars; I wanna check out that keywork). Here's hoping instead that the solution will simply be to close our eyes and savor a truely sweet sound. Based on the many enthusiastic endosments by folks on this board who actually use the products, I can't wait to encounter these bad boys firsthand and form my own opinion.
Post Edited (2006-09-21 04:19)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2006-09-21 04:31
"Compared to a Tosca or Opus II or Signature + 2 top aftermarket bells + 2 top aftermarket barrels + a top aftermarket case, the price is just about right in line with what others charge. The surprise is that a Backun-designed instrument would be offered for a price which is not actually at a premium to what other major producers are selling new instruments for, given the quality of the Backun materials, craftspersonship, reputation, musicality, and reputation of quality that will probably mean that the instrument holds value over time much better than competitors. The $5700 asking price, in this context, might actually be a bargain." George.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The actual worth to me of one of the best reeds I've experienced in years to play some of the major, most challenging orchestral works as frequent principal clarinettist in the CSO both last week and during the summer season (including Eb clarinettist for the duration of that time), would easily be expressed in dollar amounts many times in excess of these newly minted clarinets themselves. And that quality of reed is not nearly as ubiquitous - far rarer than any new (or old) "magic" clarinet.
To what dollar value and relative importance do we assign *that* part of our equipment (the reed)? I would not be surprised if perhaps the irony in that question is not lost on anyone.
Gregory Smith
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-09-21 04:45
As Greg has so eloquently written, it ALL starts with step #1:
Learn to first play the reed and mouthpiece....GBK
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-09-21 12:04
Klose $50
Rose $35
The time to practice them....priceless
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2006-09-21 12:47
My guess is that 99.99999% of clarinet players who are in the market of buying a new clarinet are not professionals. I am enclined to say that for most of them how the horn plays does not matter as much as who made it and who plays it. A clarinet maker makes a decision on a selling price based on the cost to design and manufacture instrument and the current state of the market. I don't see their price much different than other clarinet makers.
If I had enough cash I would certainly buy it. I would also buy a tosca, a signature, a chadash, a rossi, an eaton, a hanson titanium ...
*Would I find my new clarinets beautiful?
Certainly.
*Would it make me happy?
Oh yes, at least until the next new Chadash-Backun-Yan-Drucker-Behn-Combs clarinet comes out.
*Would it help me play Brahms sonatas better?
Unclear.
*Would it help me go through one page of the Nielsen concerto?
Absolutely NO.
I think all of us are aware of this, yet we all want the latest greatest. It's not a clarinet thing. Think about your car, your new flat screen TV, your latest fashion clothes or the $100 snickers that cost 20c to make. We certainly can't blame clarinet makers to take advantage of the free market and con us into buying things we don't need. Yet, we can always choose not to buy their products if we don't think they are worth it.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-21 15:28
"We certainly can't blame clarinet makers to take advantage of the free market and con us into buying things we don't need."
I agree, and it seems very strange to me that people actually sound angry with Leblanc and Morrie Backun for this. Maybe I'm an alien but I just don't get it...... What am I missing here?
"Think about your car, your new flat screen TV, your latest fashion clothes or the $100 snickers that cost 20c to make."
Hard to think of these things when I don't have them. Although I can afford them, but prefer not to have them. Am I really a part of such a minority?!
Edit: I didn't notice you said $100 Snickers. I have those, actually cost more than $100. I run about 7km at least three times a week, and having good shoes is one of the most important things. I had bad shoes, and after a couple of weeks had serious pains and problems with my foot. Good running shoes are VERY important, no matter the cost. Bad shoes are simply dangerous to your health and can cause serious problems. I'd prefer to play a student clarinet the rest of my life than to ever run with bad shoes again. So yes, I have one of the things you mentioned.
Post Edited (2006-09-22 09:10)
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-09-21 15:56
Capitalism, baby. Ah love it!
"...it seems very strange to me that people actually sound angry with Leblanc and Morrie Backun for this."
I agree, clarnibass...
I think, as with all things, a lot of people for whom certain things are beyond their means turn frustration over not being able to get them into anger and derision of others who CAN buy them, or want to buy them; AND the products themselves.
"Ach, who needs that crap anyway? Why anybody would waste hard-earned money on that claptrap is beyond me anywho! No reason to get a new TV when this one works just fine! A Jaguar?!? Please, my Honda runs just as well...buncha suckers, buyin' them fancy cars."
Well, ok. That's all well and good...but the people who WANT to buy certain things, and CAN buy these certain things, should not be subject to criticism for that decision. Nor should the products in question.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-22 00:56
(Disclaimer - I am designer of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets and have not play tested or own any of the LeBlanc-Backun clarinets)
I am puzzled, confused from a marketing standpoint and perhaps someone can explain the logic? Price is my comparison since I have not tried the new clarinets and buyers will lump them into "thousands" price baskets instinctively.
What is supposed to compete with what in the professional and "student"market? If you take the big box mail order house as the relative price point - What is supposed to compete with the R-13, E-11, Vintage, Prestige, Tosca?
It appears as if the pricing points make the "student" Cadenza compete with the R-13, Rapsodie (which is not a Backun product) with E-11, the Symphonie with the Vintage, and the Selmer Signature (same company different brand), and Legacy with Tosca and Prestige.
I am suprised that LeBlanc did not take on the R-13 head to head if they want to win market share in the "professional" level market?
L. Omar Henderson
(Ball park pricing 09/21 - R-13 $2100, E-11 $1000, Vintage $3300, Selmer Signature $3000, Symphonie $3200, Cadenza $1850, Rapsodie $1000, Tosca $5400, Legacy $5500. Prestige $4800 - all Bb horns)
Post Edited (2006-09-22 00:58)
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2006-09-22 01:31
Hi Omar,
You might want to go online to a major sales outlet and check the prices again.....I think you will find some interesting differences. Please note that the Leblanc designed by Backun Clarinets all have Silver Plated mechanisms (not less expensive Nickel) so you should make sure that you are comparing "Apples.....with Apples"
FYI, I just did the exercise and came up with quite different numbers.
All of the Leblanc new model clarinets also have 2 barrels (one Grenadilla and one Cocobolo)
Hope that helps clarify a few of the points.
Regards,
Morrie Backun
(Disclaimer.....I designed the Leblanc by Backun Clarinets)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-22 02:06
Morrie, you bring up some interesting comparisons. Silver plating of course is a $100-$200 plus to the price if you like it or your pocket book allows. Two barrels is also a plus (not a dollar for dollar advantage in sales however). I guess that I am lumping the general price categories (where most of sales fall) at around the $1000-$1250 range for the most popular intermediate wood clarinet, and around the $2000. range for the most popular "professional" level entry level clarinets and the $3000. range for upper level professional level clarinets and then the "high cotton" high $4000.- mid $5000. range clarinets. I believe that my figures (sans silver plating and extra barrel allowances at retail) were what I saw tonight on the WWBW site. My conundrum is in order to gain the +10% market share increase to make a model line a financial success (by some financial guru estimates) it would seem that the $2000. entry level professional segment, which accounts for about 70% of the market share in total sales, is the area for winning or losing the campaign. I am sure that your bean counters have figured this out but it is still puzzling to me and wish to be educated?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-09-22 02:33
Perhaps the Cadenza is simply mislabeled as a student or entry clarinet? Maybe it really *does* compete with the R13. And did Buffet not just recently raise their prices to a ridiculous level and institute a minimum selling price which would actually put the Cadenza several hundred dollars lower?
Mayhap we give this a few weeks, let some people get them in their hands for a while and make the appropriate comparisons, and THEN have this debate?
I know I will be posting my full review after I try them, and I encourage others to do the same.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-22 05:20
If I were a Leblanc R & D engineer/researcher(or whatever they're called),
I'd be extremely embarassed and humiliated by the launch of Leblanc designed by Backun.
With a long history and all the accumulated know-hows(if any),they couldn't
come up with their own barrel,bell or u/l joints to challenge other big 3.
What a pathetic company that is.
I bet the introduction of Legacy will help the sale of R13 or Opus if they turn out not much better than other's flagship models.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-22 05:29
"And did Buffet not just recently raise their prices to a ridiculous level and institute a minimum selling price which would actually put the Cadenza several hundred dollars lower?"
No, not several hundreds, more than a thousand!
Omar - the prices in your post are not correct. A new silver plated Bb Buffet R13 actually costs $2,900. Many people buy the nickel plated R13 but that's still almost $2,600. I think the $900 or $600 more for the Symphonie might not be that much of a difference for a professional.
"it would seem that the $2000. entry level professional segment, which accounts for about 70% of the market share in total sales, is the area for winning or losing the campaign."
Is that only the statistics in the USA or all the world? In my country the number of student clarinets is huge in comparison with professional models, at least from what I see.
The Cadenza model seems to be stuck between price ranges (at least to my eyes which are ignorant of marketing business). Starting students more likely go for a B12 or E11 price range. Upgrading more likely to skip the Cadenza and go for R13 or higher model. Or not?
P.S. I think in this case comparing the new Leblanc models with nickel plated models is fine. The Leblanc models just don't offer nickel option. Other than the plating, the nickel and silver models from other companies are identical.
Post Edited (2006-09-22 09:20)
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Author: T.Wees
Date: 2006-09-22 08:29
Sylvain wrote: "Think about your car, your new flat screen TV, your latest fashion clothes or the $100 snickers that cost 20c to make."
Man, where are you buying your Snickers bars?
Maybe Morrie's mouthpiece prices are a bargain, after all.
![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-22 10:49
(Disclaimer - I designer of the Forte' Bb and C clarinets)
Buffet pricing on WWBW is for USA and not for all of North America and indeed on recheck (I was looking at B stock nickel plated R-13) it is $2900 for silver plated, $2600 for nickel (too much of a price difference)- I goofed. It remains to be seen if this pricing increase holds or competition will drive it down or the MAP (minimum advertised price) erodes to a much lower selling price in the future. A savvy buyer will find ways in the US to get them from other sources at a much reduced price.
The 70% figure for R-13 (market survey information) is the percentage of all "professional" level instruments sold in the US by Buffet which has a 70-80% plus market share. Most R-13s are not sold to professional players but to advancing students. Globally the market share of Buffet is similar for professional level instruments just more RC's elsewhere. The percentage is not for all clarinets sold just "professional" level clarinets sold.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-09-22 13:33)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2006-09-22 13:23
Re: Snikers
The peanuts have a special "Boundary Layer" and are picked from vintage peanut trees from the 50's, the ones right next to the rubber trees who made these crazy Cheds...
The bar is not coated with chocolate but "plated and cured" a process that takes hours to achieve to perfection.
:)
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-09-22 13:29
Georgia being the peanut state - peanuts are legumes growing underground, but your are right that the peanut trees from the 50's would be a rare bird indeed and worthy of a king's ransom.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-09-22 13:31)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2006-09-22 13:32
Now that I've made sufficient fool of myself it is time to go back to work
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Ed
Date: 2006-09-22 15:18
Koo Young Chung states:
"If I were a Leblanc R & D engineer/researcher(or whatever they're called),
I'd be extremely embarassed and humiliated by the launch of Leblanc designed by Backun.
With a long history and all the accumulated know-hows(if any),they couldn't
come up with their own barrel,bell or u/l joints to challenge other big 3.
What a pathetic company that is."
I don't know whay that is a problem. It is often a good idea to bring in new people with new ideas. They have had various people come in over the years over the years. Tom Ridenour worked with the Opus, Concerto, etc years ago. Buffet adopted the Moennig and Chadash barrels. Guy Chadash and others have consulted with Buffet on various models. Why not go to one of the most prominent technicians out there today? It would be a dumb move to close their eyes and ears and not look to what others are doing.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-09-22 15:56
Then you must just positively FOAM with disgust at Buffet, Koo, right? I mean, THOSE "pathetic" infidels brought in Robert Carrée in the 50's and he created the R13. But, Buffet's been around since the 1800's...I mean, with all that long history and accumulated know how (if any), why couldn't they come up with their OWN polycylindrical bore design? What a pathetic company THEY were, eh, old pal?
I have no idea why you seem to hate LeBlanc so much, but it seems like such a waste of energy! Wouldn't it be better spent channeled into your violin making?
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2006-09-22 18:36
"In 1921, a young beginner, Robert Carrée, was hired by the company. He was an extremely talented acoustic technician and developed the R13 clarinet in 1950 and the RC clarinet in 1975. These in turn led to the creation of the Festival and Prestige professional models."
The above quote is from the Buffet website. It appears as though Mr. Carree was not brought in to create the R13, but he had been employed by Buffet for nearly thirty years before he used his skills to create the R13.
Actually the R13 was and remains in constant change. The instrument plays very differently today than it did in 1970, and 1950 and so on...
The R13 measured differently then than it does today as well.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-09-22 18:40
I thought the R13 was created in 1955?
(Apparently all these years of not playing Buffet products are showing. :-) I've always been a LeBlanc boy.)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-09-22 18:47
[ Let's keep this thread on topic. A specific discussion of Buffet clarinets, their creation and design warrants its own thread - GBK ]
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-09-22 19:46
Well noted, GBK. Sorry about that...
Now, we see that WWBW and such have them (ProWinds seems to, as well.)...but does anybody know when they will be in stock at dealers nationwide? (I live in NYC, and would love to know if, for example, Sam Ash will be stocking them anytime soon.)
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Author: frank
Date: 2006-09-22 20:11
How good is good? The modern professional clarinets since 1955 (R13 based) have been the standard. Cmon, how much better can a clarinet using this design get? A sound is still a sound. There are players of today who sound like butt, some sound amazing. There were players of yester year as stated above. Cahouzac was the man. Carbonare is the man. How can anyone get more manly?  The Boehm clarinet is relatively unchanged since it's debut about 150 years ago. We aren't talking horse and buggy to Ferarri level of change here. I guess I am at the point in my life and professional musician career where I do not readily buy marketing hype about musical products anymore. Those days are gone. It's amazing what vendors will try to sell you at a festival or convention. I've experienced what works and what does not (for me). I have also been fortunate to play and/or own nearly every make of mouthpiece and pro clarinet in existence. My experience with products is broad and I use said experience for my basis of opinions.
Greg Smith has it right. Let the sound talk, the B.S. walk. Very wise words from an obviously wise man. Like rap legend and pop icon Flava Flav once said...."don't believe 'da hype".
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2006-09-23 01:23
Buffet didn't put their stamp on u/l joints and RC stamp on bell or barrel.
It was more integrated effort.I just want to know what's MB's contribution to true intonation and gorgeous tone in simple terms.RC did reverse taper,
poly....thing,other than obvious B and B what MB did to the bore design or
anything else.Maybe they should just sell upper and lower joint and let the player choose other parts like mp or barrels.
Post Edited (2006-09-23 01:27)
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Author: chito
Date: 2006-09-23 01:33
I saw the picture of Leblanc Legacy Bb Clarinet Model LB110B in wood wind and brass today I just want to know if this instrument have extra left hand key (Eb ).
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2006-09-23 02:06
Post Edited (2006-09-23 03:39)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-23 02:10
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> **** Buffet didn't put their stamp on u/l joints..... **** <
> **** RC did reverse taper..... **** <
This is nonsense! You don't know what you're talking about.
Clarinet is not a violin. You're on the wrong board IMO!
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-23 02:40
While someone may be wrong, it is NEVER proper for a reply to be insulting and it will not be tolerated on this BBoard. There is a rule about ad hominum postings. Read it.
This is fair warning to all.
Mark C., moderator, webmaster, and owner of the company that supports all of this.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2006-09-23 04:10
Chito,
In answer to your question, the instruments do not have an extra Eb key on the left. I can't imagine why not.
J.J.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-09-23 12:30
I think it's very difficult to judge "innuendo, cynicism and sarcasm" in this written medium.
Isn't this an incredibly long thread about an instrument that almost nobody has tried??!
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2006-09-23 14:49
Actually, the left hand alternate Eb key is available at the players choice (at no extra) cost on the Legacy. Interestingly, many players remove the left hand Eb key, or will not purchase an instrument with one, so we decided to let the player have the choice.
I see many comments on the board which state incorrect facts about many makes and models. Please take care in posting "facts" unless you are sure of the accuracy.
Best to all,
Morrie Backun
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-09-23 16:14
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> *** "Do you know that Stradivari violins value that much not because of the sound but because of the workmanship and great looks?" *** <
> *** "I've been a maker, restorer and fine violin dealer for 22 years". *** <
____________________________________________________________
I find this statement absolutely ridiculous. Genuine Antonio Stradivari instruments ARE famous for the quality of their sound (1700 to 1720 period) There have been many FAILED attempts to explain and reproduce the sound quality of Stradivarius violins. Sure the workmanship of the Stradivarius can be viewed as a standard of excellence but the quality of their sound is the most important factor that commands the highest prices of any musical instrument ever made.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-23 16:46
Vytas wrote:
Let's stick to the Leblanc/Backun clarinets, shall we? Argue violins off-line, please.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-09-23 16:49
This thread has now wandered so far out of line that I'm closing it. When people have actually tried the Leblanc/Backun clarinet I'll be more than happy to re-open it. There are two posters here who I know have actually tried the clarinet (Morrie & Julian) - most of the rest - with a few exceptions - is just a rehash of other threads (it's too expensive, etc.) with no real new knowledge.
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