 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-07 12:35
Hello
I'm going to buy a torch for repair (change pads, soldering, etc). No place that I know of will ship torches outside their country, so I went to the local store today to see what torches they had.
All the torches had a one time tank. By that I mean a tank that you don't refill, but you just get another tank when the gas is finished. They had a few different ones, so I will decide mostly based on comfort and maybe type of gas.
They had two torches that use botan gas. They are shorter, and the fire is almsot completely horizonal. Only difference is one needs a lighter/matches to turn on, while the other is automaticaly (you click a button). The botan refills are pretty cheap. These two also had a handle that is comfortable to hold if you want to move it.
Two other torches had a lot taller tanks and the fire is almost vertical. One use propan gas, and the other use some kind of gas which I think called TAP (they wrote that in Hebrew letters so I don't know in English). The propan refills are about twice more expensive than the butan ones, and the TAP refills are almost twice more than the propan.
All had a fosset to control the gas, I don't know if that controls the size of the fire. Only one of the shorter ones had some ring close to the edge, that looked like it controls the air so might control the fire size. Unfortunately they were lke the normal store here, which means they can't answer nay questions I had, and couldn't check the torches at the store. I looked all over the city and that's the only store I found which had any.
Something nice in the torches I see on American websites is that it seems they can either stand or lie, becasue of their base, which means the fire can be both horizonal or vertical. Unfortunately none of the ones we have here can do that.
Unless I could buy from overseas (and it doesn't look like I can), I'd have to go with one of those. The shorter ones I think are much more comfortable because they are shorter. I think propan is cleaner than butan but not sure. I don't know if that matters at all for clarinets repair.
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks!
P.S. Sorry for any mispelled words, some technical terms I don't know how to spell. If you answer and want to use technical terms, please use as easy English as you can.
Post Edited (2006-09-07 12:55)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-09-07 13:14
I suggest consulting J.L. Smith Co. for repair products. Also try Ferree's Tools.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2006-09-07 13:19)
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-09-07 13:54
clarnibass,
If there is a repair tech in your area, you could visit her/him to see what they are using and where they acquired it.
It would also be prudent to have someone instruct you in the safe use (like wearing safety glasses, etc.) of whatever you buy, since these torches are potentially hazardous.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-07 19:25
I don't know how things are in Israel as far as cooking and kitchenware suppliers go, but in the UK most kitchenware shops sell refillable butane torches (for caramelising creme brulee) which work well on saxes.
I have two different sizes of torches - one is fairly small but has a good controllable flame (the ring does alter the amount of oxygen, in it's fully open position the flame is hotter and more direct) and the larger of the torches can be used for silver soldering keys. Both have piezo electric ignition.
I use a bunsen burner (with an LPG nozzle) for use with bottled Calor gas or propane, though at Howarth they use similar bunsen burners with natural gas (from the gas mains) but they ned a different nozzle specially for natural gas. The keywork mounters use a torch that mixes both natural gas and compressed air for silver soldering, with a trigger to open a valve for the compressed air.
But you can always use bottled gas (propane) and oxygen with one of these torches.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-09-08 05:19)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-09-08 00:45
The Portasol looks exactly like what my repair tech uses. He does turn it on and off but I think there is an piezo ignition switch. It seems to work very well.
Post Edited (2006-09-08 00:47)
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-08 04:32
I'm a big fan of acetylene in a jeweler's torch for clarinet work. It burns very hot and is very concentrated (as opposed to gases like propane and butane, which have high specific heat contents but the heat is more diffuse). It is also pretty widely available. The biggest issue is that it is a very hazardous gas if you don't know what you're doing, and even then it's not very forgiving. I use it mainly because I have a tank for welding so I've already got it on hand.
MAPP (or MPS) is another very hot gas that is a bit more diffuse than acetylene. It is a proprietary mixture of gases and is very much safer than acetylene. It's only drawback is that it's not quite as common as acetylene.
Both of these gases are hot, so they require a smaller flame and eventually less gas. Also, the smaller flame is easier to control. With propane and butane you have to use a bigger flame which is usually all over the place.
Jeweler's torches are also rather common.
-Randy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-08 05:25
My bunsen burner flame IS large, and I can put in small oboe pads (6mm cork) with it with ease, and without scorching them.
I used to use a Primus blowtorch when I first started, again this has a large flame, but you can get different nozzles for different sized flames.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-09-08 09:07
OK thanks very much for all your asnwers. I think I'm getting somewhere here.
Arnold - Thanks. I know about J.L. Smith and Ferree's Tools. Ferree's will not ship torches outside the USA. Smith doesn't have any torches that I'm interested in.
Hans - I can't do that and I'll spare you the details why. Regarding the safety issues, that's not a problem at all.
Bennet - OK that was helpful. At least now I can explain better about the ones I found here. Benzomatic is the company that makes almost all the torches I found here.
We have this one this one: http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/jhtml/detail.jhtml?prodId=BernzoProd100026 which doesn't look comfortable at all. I think it is too tall to work with when it stands on the table, plus it doesn't look like the most stable. Also it is impossible to know if the fire is wide or thin, and it is possible they might stop importing those gas bottles at some point.
I've been working with an alcohol burner for a long time now, but the fire is just too wide. Fine for melting the glue on the key (although a fire from the side is probably more comfortable for that), but too big for readjusting the pad later when it is on the instrument. I did it, but a thin fire would just make it much easier imho.
By the way, it was probably MAPP and I just remembred wrong.
Tictactux - This one that you showed: http://www.campingaz.com/sunbeam/products/index_visualiser.asp?ref=387&move_pointeur= is almost similar to the shorter one I found here. Can you tell me what type of fire it has, is it thin or wide? Though this also uses one time gas cans which is not as good imo. Is this one comfortable at all for soldering? Looks like no to me.
This one: http://www.portasol.com/gastorch.html that you showed looks more like the ones that are normally used by repairers, and I think I know why. It is pretty short, can either stand or lie (assuming it can work lying, it is easy to make a wood block to make it very stable), and is refillable (which means I might just be able to refill it from my house gas balloons, if it is a standard connection). This specific one has a very short burn time, so something like that only with a bigger balloon will be perfect. If anyone know where I can get something like that that will ship internationally that would help very much! Really I looked everywhere and we don't have anything even a little similar around here.
Chris - What's the difference between bunsen and non-bunsen torch? When you say the flame is large, is it larger than an alcohol lamp? The kichenware stores around here that I know are just regular hardware stores, and they don't have any torches.
Cuisleannach - Thanks for all the info. I think I'll stay with the butan and propan torches. This torch: http://blazerproducts.com/tools/gb2001.html works on butan gas and the fire seems very thin and pointy.
I just need to clarify something. Here, none the stores that even have anything that resemble a torch have a website. Most hardware store don't have any and don't even understand what you are talking about when you ask them. A lot of things that you want to find around here, you have to be familiar with the specific industry to know where to look. Otherwise you have to do what I do which is go around to many stores and ask. It is not like other countries, that you can go to a website, order, and you have exactly what you want a few days later.
Thanks again!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-09-08 09:59
clarnibass,
for extremely filigrane work, the campingaz burner is best used standing, a bit like a lab bunsen burner; it's not all that uncomfortable to hold it, though.
I bought the X1650 tip (link on the same page), and with it a single bottle (190g) is good for over six hours.
The campingaz C206 cylinder is available worldwide (except Jamaica and Uganda, I see). No, I am not affiliated with that company.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-08 12:26
Clarnibass:
There are many sources that you will not find in the average shopping centre.
I use a small butane torch, with horizontal flame, but most of the time this is hand held, at any angle. I use this for soldering and light silversoldering. Refilled many times from a pressurised disposable cylinder.
Somebody suggested trying suppliers to the professional kitchen trade. Yes, excellent idea. They are also used by electronics guys. Also for lighting cigars, so try a tobacconist.
For larger soldering work (especially silversoldering, I use propane/butane (actually our local Liquified Petroleum Gas) in a refillable cylinder, with hose connection. You could try specialist plumbers supplies, or whoever supplies gas and equipment for your local plumbers for their brazing, and the local welders. Also try suppliers to the silversmithing and jewellery industries.
An advantage in not having a hotter flame than propane or butane is that it is very difficult to OVER-heat, or melt the base metal.
For most pad work, at least for the smaller woodwinds, I use a Bunsen burner, connected to the same refillable bottle. Whoever supplies to your local science labs, dental labs, and hospitals will almost certainly have Bunsen burners. Ask your local school or university where they get them.
A big (standard sort of size) Bunsen burner flame is not really a problem. You heat with the edge of it. However I have reduced mine to half the diameter by making a metal cap with a smaller diameter hole, to go over the top of the burner.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-09-08 13:43
But with a bunsen burner, depending on the kind of the gas used (bottle or mains) you will need the correct nozzle that's specific to the kind of gas you are using - probably best to go for bottled gas (propane or Calor) and have the burner fitted with an LPG nozzle for this - and you have a portable supply of gas and you're not restricted to where you can use your bunse burner.
With natural gas you will need a gas tap fitted to your domestic gas supply (though I'm not sure if having a gas tap as in a science lab at home is legal - you'll need to check this with your gas board), and the correct bunsen burner for it.
I think the aperture of the nozzle on a natural gas bunsen burner is larger than one on an LPG burner - the nozzle is at the base of the burner where the air adjustment barrel is.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-09 03:20
Chris P wrote:
>>My bunsen burner flame IS large, and I can put in small oboe pads (6mm cork) with it with ease, and without scorching them.
But it's definitely learned....I apprenticed using a Bunsen burner with natural gas...I have so many memories of thinking things are going so well and suddenly seeing that infuriating wisp of black smoke rise up from the pad. It's great feedback for learning, but it gave me a complex about Bunsen burners ever since. I like the control the hot gases give me in that I can use as much or as little heat as I feel I need. I don't necessarily push this as an advantage, more a personal preference.
-Randy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-09-09 07:37
For me, a big disadvantage in acetylene here in NZ is that soon my bottle will be obsolete, and the only way I can use the stuff is with a monthly hire on the bottle itself, which is ridiculously high for the amount of use and any advantage it might have. I hope competitive alternatives evolve. Certainly, what may work in one country, may not in another.
For much of my heating, eg most pad cups, I LIKE to have a more diffuse flame.
However I would love to experiment with the opposite extreme, oxy-acetylene with the Smith Little Torch http://www.littletorch.com/ for certain soldering jobs, with the possibility of finishing the job before neighbouring parts get warm. Of course, the downside with such temperature, is that it is easier to melt a key.
Probably the cheapest way to set up with oxy-fuel here now is with a machine that produces oxy-hydrogen from water and electricity. Examples:
http://sra-solder.com/
http://www.spirig.com/spirflame/index.html
http://www.okaicorp.com/
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Author: Cuisleannach
Date: 2006-09-09 17:52
That's true....since acetylene is scarily unstable at pressures above 15 psig oxy-hydrogen (or MPS) is used for underwater gas welding when pressures are 1 atm or greater (> 10 meters down).
And what would modern sculpture be without accidentally melted keys?
-Randy
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