 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-14 09:20
OK, simple question (maybe):
Vandoren list their mouthpiece facing lengths as 'MS', 'M', 'ML', 'L'. What does that mean in 'real' money i.e. millimetres (or comparable)?
Can anyone help? Has anyone measured them?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-03-14 13:07
Here is a general guideline to the way Vandoren catagorizes their Bb and Eb mouthpiece facing lengths:
L - 21mm (.826") and 22mm (.866") or higher
ML - 20mm (.787")
M - 19mm (.748")
MS - 18mm (.708")
S - 17mm (.669")
Their bass clarinet facing lengths are:
L - 32mm (1.259")
ML - 30mm (1.181")
M - 29mm (1.141")
MS - 28mm (1.102")
S - 24mm (.944")
...GBK
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-14 13:43
Thanks, GBK. Where did you get the info?
I was looking at the Selmer website - they list facing lengths in mm. Their CP100 range comes in at 27mm. This seems quite extreme on the above scale.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-14 14:21
Back in olden days, Vandoren allegedly made their facings asymmetric (one rail longer than the other), for reasons I don't understand (I believe this was written in Kal Opperman's book "Handbook for Making and Adjusting Single Reeds", where he spoke about scraping more from one side of the reed to compensate for this). If true, than what does Vandoren consider to be the facing length -- the long rail, the short rail, or the average of the two?
Just curious.
Disclaimer: I could be wrong; often am.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-03-14 18:06
Bassie wrote:
> Thanks, GBK. Where did you get the info?
In my files I have some older Vandoren mouthpiece spec sheets ...GBK
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2006-03-14 22:42
I just tried out a 5RV Lyre and found it to be rather resistant for me. So I took out my glass measuring tool and measured a solid 34. The box listed the facing length as "medium".
I don't like facing lengths listed as short, medium, medium/long, or long. I much prefer the numbers because then I can judge the playing capabilities of a mouthpiece much more easily.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-03-15 00:46
I find this Vandoren guideline misleading. Like Dan already mentioned 5RV Lyre has medium 17mm (34) facing. This guide shows 17mm facing as Short.
My Vandoren B45 also has 17mm long facing. On the Vandoren website B45 listed as "Medium Long" facing. I measure it 17mm (34) long so it's medium by American standards. The posted guideline shows 17mm as "Short". Go figure...
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-15 07:01
I can think of a number of reasons why Vandoren do it:
- To express the playing characteristics of a mouthpiece to the consumer without their having to translate the numbers
- Mouthpieces might feel more or less resistant because of other factors e.g. chamber, baffle
- To keep a lid on their intellectual property.
But I'm trying to understand if there's a logical pattern in my playing preferences, so I'd like to see the numbers.
I've read about the glass scale and the feeler gauges. I wonder: how accurately can you measure the true start of the lay? I've tried the paper-under-the-reed technique and can only get about +/- 1 mm, which looks like it isn't really accurate enough.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2006-03-15 22:53
Bassie,
I believe the accepted standard is to use a 0.0015" feeler gauge to check for facing length with a glass gauge which gives the reading in 1/2 mm steps. For example, a reading of 34 would mean that the accepted facing length is 17mm. The actual total facing length is a little bit longer and would require much thinner gauges to measure it which can be very difficult to find and might be rather expensive to purchase.
I believe the following might be useful for those who want to know the facing length of their mpc but do not have a glass gauge: Get yourself a stiff, metal ruler that has mm engravings on it that start at the very end of the ruler. Place the ruler on top of the mpc table with the zero end of the ruler exactly at the end of the mpc. This can be easily done by holding the mpc tip against a solid surface and gently sliding the ruler until it also hits the solid surface. Next, hold the mpc in such a way that you are able to see light between the ruler and the mpc facing. Determine exactly where the light just begins at the beginning of the facing curve and place your fingernail exactly on top of the point where the light just begins. Carefully bring the top of the ruler into view and read the total length of the facing in mm. Multiply your result by 2 to give the standard readout that the glass gauges give. This is your facing length. I have done this many times and have found it to be fairly accurate.
As to why manufacturers don't readily reveal their mpc facing lengths... I really don't know. However, IMHO, I believe they do a severe disservice to those who are knowledgeable about facing lengths. To my knowledge, the only two mpc makers that give detailed facing lengths on their websites are Selmer and Clark Fobes. If there are others, please let me know.
Vytas,
Thanks for the facing info about the B45. I actually thought that it was much longer than 34. Now I really understand why the B45 was so difficult for me to play...with a 34 facing, a scooped out baffle and a wide tip opening of approximately 0.047", this spells r-e-s-i-s-t-a-n-t in my book.
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2006-03-16 20:01
Fobes calls 17mm. "middle of the road". Perhaps 17mm. is short for VanDoren because that is as short as they go.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-03-18 18:11
I had a thought about feeler gauges. Some of the maths I once used to know came back to me in a flash...
Say we want to measure the length of the lay to 0.5mm. That's about one part in 40 (for a 20mm lay). If we assume the facing is a smooth curve, then to a first approximation it's shaped like a parabola i.e. x-squared. So 1 part in 40 away from the start of the lay, the lay has opened by 1 part in 40 squared, or 1 part in 1600. So if the tip is 1200um (47 thou), we're going to need a feeler gauge of 750nm thickness, or 30 millionths of an inch. This is about the wavelength of light, and clearly unfeasible.
A feeler gauge at 1.5 thou = 1 part in 30 of the tip opening will only get us to within about 1 part in 6 = 3mm of the true lay length.
No wonder there's tales on this site of mouthpiece refacers rubbing facings on the smooth side of the sandpaper!
The only way to measure this sort of gap is optically. I found this works:
Use the heel of a reed: place the reed heel-up (i.e., backwards, but flat side down) on the mouthpiece. Hold it with a thumb and look across the lay (against a bright light): can you see a wedge of light? Move the reed down the mouthpiece until the wedge just disappears. From the tip of the mouthpiece to the heel of the reed is the lay length.
I measured:
Selmer C85 = 19.0 mm (that's the cross-check!)
Vandoren B45 dot = 19.0 mm
Vandoren 5RV = 17.5 mm
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2006-03-18 19:41
Interesting thought about moving the butt of the reed down until the wedge of light disappears.
I believe the facing lay length measurement method I gave you as well as yours listed above could yield an incorrect reading because one leg of the facing may be shorter than the other.
For example, I just measured 4 mpcs from a shipment I received the other day from WWBW. Here is what I found:
1) Pomarico Saphire M had a facing length of 33/34. (i.e., the left leg was shightly shorter than the right).
2) Pomarico Saphire B had a facing length of 37.5/38. Both of the Pomarico's are adverstised to have a facing length of 42 or 21mm long.
3) Selmer C85 had a facing length of 26/28!!! This one is advertised to have a facing length of 38 or 19mm long. Would you believe I didn't even bother to try this one out!?
4) Hite M model had an even facing length of 32 or 16mm.
The vanishing wedge of light method along with the ruler method I listed above can only have a fair accuracy, IMO, "IF AND ONLY IF" both of the legs are exactly the same length.
Needless to say I'm getting quite dismayed at what appears to be bad quality control by certain mpc manufacturers. On the plus side, my last shipment of mpcs had 5RV Lyres and both had a facing length of 34 or 17mm. They played with such a consistenancy that it was hard for me to tell any difference between them.
After taking facing measurements of various mpcs for trial purposes, I now understand why certain players try out 30 mpcs or more before they find a good one. Depending upon the quality control of the mpc maker, trying out many mpcs of the same make and model may be necessary before one finds an "acceptable" one.
I highly recommend everyone getting a glass facing measurement tool along with the 4 recommended feeler gauges. Why? two reasons come to mind. First, if a new mpc doesn't play right for you, a quick measurement of the facing may tell you why very quickly. Second, the more mpcs you play of various facing lengths may reveal to you which facing length appears to work best for your type of embouchure and playing style. This, IMO, also has another benefit of saving you a lot of time, grief and $$$$ by not trying out mpcs which you will learn from experience are "too short" or "too long" of a facing for you.
Allow me to explain. Some time ago, Brad Behn introduced me to something that I hadn't thought of before and that was the concept of having a "personal facing". This, I'm sure, included the tip opening along with the facing length. I, personally, believe that Brad is correct... everyone has a specific facing length and tip opening that appears to works best for their embouchure in the style or type of music they are playing. For example, in my short trial period, I have found out that that I prefer a facing length of at least 38 and longer depending upon the tip opening. Anything shorter, so far, appears to be too resistive for me and the tone is too "set" or non-flexible for me. Without having a glass measuring tool handy, I would not have been able to determine this.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-03-18 20:12
The danger of using the measuring gauges, is that most people never practice using them. When I got mine, Iggy Gennusa made me measure one of my mouthpieces 20 times, until I started get the same readings everytime, the gauges were of little use. But the real problem is how people "try" equiptment. If I tried 30 mouthpieces of any manufacturer, presumibly I would find some that played better than others, and some that played badly. How do I know that one of the bad ones wouldn't be great if I took the time to rethink what kind of reed one needs to use on it. It takes me a solid week of playing a mouthpiece before I feel even remotly qualified to have an opinion one way or the other. I've seen people try mouthpieces, without even putting the ligature on, just holding the reed. I must admit I'm not that talented, I need both hands! When that person took those back to the table I played through them, anyone I could have taken and played. in a 5 min reed session, not even my hairdresser could tell from the stuff I'd been playing for months.
Too many times people say things like " I tried 20 of these to find a good" or "this one just had a special sound", Hell maybe after 3 hrs in the store playing licks on the mouthpiece you finally could play the lick and are warmed up. There just seems to me to not be alot of "Scientific methoed l" being used by "end" users of all the cool things we have to try these days.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-03-18 20:15
by the way
i've measured lots of B45s, and found they are usually somewhere between 38 and 40 (19mm- 20mm) in facing length
i'm sure that there are exceptions to this
donald
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2006-03-18 20:37
"The danger of using the measuring gauges, is that most people never practice using them. When I got mine, Iggy Gennusa made me measure one of my mouthpieces 20 times, until I started get the same readings everytime, the gauges were of little use."
Good point. I agree that it takes a while to get the knack of doing the measurement correctly. For example, I have learned through experience that placing thumb pressure unevenly can yield facing lenghts that are different for each leg of the mpc. It does take time to learn correct thumb pressure and placement on the glass measuring tool, but I still believe it's a very useful tool. And, I will also agree that going for multiple measurements has a lot of validity. IMHO, the greater the number of measurements (with slight variations of thumb placement), the greater the accuracy of the measurement.
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