 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2006-01-07 17:51
As a student in the mentoring program with the New World Symphony fellows, I was invited to a masterclass last Thursday with John Bruce Yeh.
If anyone remembers my comments about the masterclass with Mark Nuccio I was invited to two years ago, this is the same situation except this was a general clarinet masterclass instead of an orchestral audition masterclass.
The three fellows and a sub. performed for Mr. Yeh. They played Beet. 6, Tosca, La Forza Del Destino, Tchaik 6, Mendelssohn MSND Scherzo excerpts, and the Nielsen Concerto as well as the Berio Sequenza. It was quite informative, and Mr. Yeh used a lot of playing by example, which I like in masterclasses.
He talked to me about studying at Roosevelt, and I think he would be a great teacher to study under, for any of the people in my same boat(undergrad school shopping) or looking at Grad schools. He says they have a truly great orchestral training program, and the Civic is right there obviously as well as the CSO.
Bradley
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2006-01-07 18:30
Mr. Yeh is an excellent teacher. I had the opportunity to study with him while at DePaul some years back. He really insisted that everything be played with as much expression as possible, and would never let the student play just the notes. He is truly a nice guy and I would highly recommend him to anyone.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-07 21:17
DAVE wrote:
>>I had the opportunity to study with [Mr Yeh] while at DePaul some years back. He really insisted that everything be played with as much expression as possible, and would never let the student play just the notes.>>
I bet he didn't really insist that 'everything be played with as much expression as possible', did he?
What did he say, in detail?
Tony
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2006-01-07 22:43
Well that was the impression that I got from him, not his exact words. My point was that he was VERY particular when it came to phrase shapes and musical concepts. And yes, I would say that he does insist that his students play with as much expression as possible. And the problem with that would be???
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2006-01-07 23:49
Being very particular about phrase shapes and musical concepts in distinctly different indeed from "playing everything with as much as expression as possible.
I don't even know what playing with "expression" really means. I do know, that many times when your music is marked "espr." it simply means you are the lead voice.
I think the two statements you made are very different. I agree that it is important to be particular about phrasing, and musical concepts.
Best Regards
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Author: William
Date: 2006-01-08 01:46
Rod Rubber wrote, "I don't even know what playing with "expression" really means."
It simply means playing musically with appropriate phrasings and nuance--with feeling, "soul" if you will. Just playing the right notes and rthymic figures doesn't really generate any listerner interest unless the musician(s) put some heart into the resulting sound(s). If this doesn't make sense, then you need to listen more carefully to a lot more different musical styles and stylists (performers) and try to sense what "extra" they are putting into their art. No true musician just plays the notes on the page or--for jazz--what fits within the chordal accompaniment. Make it sing, man...........................(musical expression).
Hope this makes some aesthetic sense to you.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2006-01-08 07:19
William -
I think many us of give too little credit to the composer. I strongly believe the composer imparts the most "expression" in a piece of music.
To me, your definition of "expression" is flawed, as it is filled with cliches. I disagree that playing with appropraite(whatever that means) phrasing and nuance equates to expression. In reality, it equates to exactly what it is, and no more. And exactly what is "with feeling," or "soul?"
I might have a lot of bodily functions i do "with feeling" every day. I just don't know what that means.
Then you said: "Hope this makes some aesthetic sense to you." I wonder the same thing about you.
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao
Best Regards
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-08 07:38
DAVE wrote:
>> And yes, I would say that he does insist that his students play with as much
expression as possible. And the problem with that would be???>>
The problem is that the phrase 'as much expression as possible' inevitably invokes a metaphor in which 'expression' is something that you add to the music -- as you might add maple syrup to your breakfast -- and that you can have more or less of it.
It's a metaphor that I'm concerned to shoot down wherever possible, because it's almost wholly counterproductive.
RodRubber wrote:
>> Being very particular about phrase shapes and musical concepts is distinctly different indeed from "playing everything with as much as expression as possible.">>
I agree.
>> I don't even know what playing with "expression" really means.>>
William wrote:
>> It simply means playing musically with appropriate phrasings and nuance--with feeling, "soul" if you will.>>
This is close; that 'appropriate' sums it up. A good player doesn't play with maximal expression; he or she is rather maximally concerned to find the expression appropriate to the music.
Music is many-dimensioned, and a very important one of those dimensions is the affective or emotional dimension. So, if the player finds that what is required is highly emotional, then that will be what they will be concerned to communicate. If the player finds that the music -- or what their part contributes to the music -- needs to be less emotional, then they will respond appropriately.
That bit, "or what their part contributes to the music" is an important case in point. Very often -- unless we are playing a concerto, and even then, sometimes -- we are not spotlighted, but are contributing to something else. If the music is such that we can think of that 'something' as a person, then we might be a part of what they are doing -- say, the horse they're riding on (the strings in the last movement of the Weber Quintet) -- or even a part of them, like a leg or an arm (any one of many inner clarinet lines in the Brahms Quintet). In these cases, the emotional dimension of our part defers to the emotional dimension of the whole.
Nothing worse than a leg that goes off on an emotional journey of its own -- it's a disease of orchestral oboe players;-)
William further wrote:
>> If this doesn't make sense, then you need to listen more carefully to a lot more different musical styles and stylists (performers) and try to sense what "extra" they are putting into their art. No true musician just plays the notes on the page or--for jazz--what fits within the chordal accompaniment.>>
I think Rod Rubber's "I don't even know what playing with "expression" really means" didn't mean that he didn't understand that there is more to music than just playing the notes. It rather meant that he didn't know in the abstract, divorced from a particular piece, what it meant. And that's true for me too. Each individual piece -- each individual passage -- requires different treatment.
If someone gives me just some notes on a piece of paper, I have many choices of how I play them, both technically and emotionally. I need to find what the appropriate context is. That's one of the reasons why the Cage Clarinet Sonata, which is pretty much just some notes on a piece of paper, is instructive to confront.
Anyhow, what I refuse to do is to try to apply 'utility espressivo', that horrible unthinking maple syrup that you hear so often -- never mind 'as much as possible'.
And I bet John Bruce Yeh refuses to do that too. You just misunderstood him.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-08 11:08
I left out an important bit. I wrote:
>> So, if the player finds that what is required is highly emotional, then that will be what they will be concerned to communicate. If the player finds that the music -- or what their part contributes to the music -- needs to be less emotional, then they will respond appropriately.>>
There are several emotions, and blends of emotion. So, the indication 'espressivo' is often best thought of as a question: "Expressive -- of what?"
Even farther removed from maple syrup.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-08 11:15
JessKateDD wrote:
> You say to-MAY-to, and I say to-MAH-to
CROYDON
In a house like that
your Uncle Dick was born;
Satchel on back he walked to Whitgift
Every weekday morn.
Boys together in Coulsdon woodlands,
Bramble-berried and steep,
He and his pals would look for spadgers
Hidden deep.
The laurels are speckled in Marchmont Avenue
Just as they were before,
But the steps are dusty that still lead up to
Your Uncle Dick's front door.
Pear and apple in Croydon gardens
Bud and blossom and fall,
But your Uncle Dick has left his Croydon
Once for all.
John Betjeman
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-08 14:11
If anyone ever asks you how Google works just refer them to this interchange.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2006-01-08 15:21
I don't know whether to be happy that people actually post on a thread of mine for the first time (and Mr. Pay especially!) or to be upset that it has been reduced to this.
The truth is, Rod Rubber and Mr. Pay, that I am on both sides of this argument. I think expression is needed for everything you do in music. If you're playing a submissive line then you need to have enough "with feeling" (or whatever that other stuff was about) to recognize that, and to fully support anything else going on that's more important. If you're expressing (because all of music is an expression anyway- OMG! weird thought!) a part of the music you need to fully convey the messages in it properly, at all ends of the emotion spectrum. I know all of you have said this in some way, but arguing about it really isn't that effective. I know Dave didn't mean to say what might have been perceived, but after watching Mr. Yeh for three hours I understood him completely. Mr. Pay then tries to clear that up and instead of a simple correction other firecrackers are added to the buffet table of thoughts.
If anyone wants to hear excellent things highlighted in the Nielsen (while my favourite recording is made by someone else) listen to Mr. Yeh play it. It is different now than his first recording he said, but I really liked listening to his ideas for it- he's just one of those performers that actively finds things in the music to add to the overall experience. In my encounter, that was all good- for some the maple might be too strong, but I doubt it.
Also, Mr. Pay- was it you that talked about the Berio and working with the composer on it? The sub played the Berio excellently, and when Mr. Yeh was explaining its history I couldn't help but thinking "yeah....I remember _______ saying that....was it Mr. Pay?"
You all have a good day.
I really love the NWS and Tilson Thomas for providing all that they do to Miami Beach. Last night I heard Gil Shaham playing the William Schumann Violin Concerto and it was spectacular (and the loudest orchestral accompaniment for any violin concerto EVER). The rest of the program (Fanfare for the Common Man, Symphonic Ode, Quiet City, -Copland) as part of their "American Voices" series was also excellent.
Bradley
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-01-08 15:51
Bradley wrote:
> I don't know whether to be happy that people actually post on a
> thread of mine for the first time (and Mr. Pay especially!) or
> to be upset that it has been reduced to this.
Reduced? You mean happily, wonderfully expanded, right? It hasn't been anything BUT informative!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-01-08 17:12
I like and agree with Tony Pay's post. You sure know how to explain some difficult things with words, and make it very clear even for a non-English speaker like me. Every music needs to have logic and needs to make sense, and as Tony said, every type of music will have its own sense and logic.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-01-08 22:42
I live in the oldest part of my city. Most streets and buildings are maintained exactly as they looked like in the 17th- and 18th- century (urtext). Especially one street has been somewhat adapted to modern society by city planners (editors) by the addition of some fancy stores and a shopping mall to make it more attractive to casual visitors (non experienced musicians and students). Politicians (publishers) have allowed certain interference from the original by allowing some modern facilities.
Very many visitors come to experience this beautiful part of town. Some people aren’t that interested (just playing the notes) in the many treasures you can find. Others have strong opinions on how stupid people in the old days were, building such narrow streets, not letting air and sunshine in and want to change a lot of things to suit modern people (wanting to add their own “feelings” and expressions). Others again, who have a serious interest are well prepared visitors who have studied a lot before they came here. They can enjoy every type of architecture and can tell one ornament from another (skillful interpreters). They have the deepest understanding and respect for the original environment and wouldn’t dream of adding or changing anything because what they see already has enough expression in itself.
Take this metaphor for what it’s worth.
Alphie
(Make no mistake about this, our house has gone through some “editing” since the 17th century).
Post Edited (2006-01-08 22:46)
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