 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: neil.clarinet
Date: 2005-11-17 21:47
I had an interesting discussion with my teacher recently about the extra Eb key on the left of the middle joint that some models have. I have a Vintage, which doesn't have this key. She seemed to be suggesting that it is sometimes left out because it can make the corrosponding right hand key too heavy. If we think how often this added key might be of use, there's a bit in the Saint Seans, the Weber Gran Duo, Brahms Eb (first movement), cadenza in the Messager, a few others probably, but you can usually get by without this key. Perhaps for the few times it may be useful it is worth a little extra work without it to make the main Eb key easier.
What do you guys think?
Cheers
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2005-11-17 22:11
I love the LH Eb, I right now my clarinet (a 10G) does not have one. When it was in the shop I borrowed a friends Selmer Signature for two days, and after using it just couple times I couldnt believe how usefull that key is. I am not the best with really quick passages, so I maybe that is why I like them more than a lot people. I will say it does hurt the RH Eb performance a little, but not that much. I wish they put them on all clarinets with the option of taking them off for those who don't. One of these days I am going to get the money together for a Signature (for a lot more reasons than just the LH Eb), they really are kind of amazing. But enough rambling, I think the alternate Eb is definately a good idea.
Ben
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-11-17 22:30
I think its criminal to leave off the LH Eb key. Its just dumb to have to shedule alternating pinkies so that the Eb/Ab always comes up on the right side --especially since it often doesn't.
I'll also claim that the articulated G# is a necessity. Why should saxophones be more technically advanced then our horns? (I'll trade away the alternate altissimo fingerings that the articulated G# disables, too.)
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-17 23:04
Buffet B12s can be ordered with a LH Ab/Eb key fitted as an option, but I've never seen any.
It's not as if it's too much trouble to add, and I can't see why it isn't standard on nearly all clarinets.
Even the Weril plastic C clarinet has a LH Ab/Eb as standard, and that's just a cheapo clarinet.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-18 00:28
I think it's nice to have the option. I never found myself using it when I had an amati full boehm (minus the low Eb). And even though the clarinets I recently purchased (set of opuses, or "opa" which I believe is the plural) has that side key, I doubt I'll be using it that much either. But I'm sure the day will come when I'll end up forgetting my fingering, I'll look at the next note, sweat because I have to move from a C with my right pinky to an Eb, and then I'll remember that extra little key . . .
Until that day, I see no harm, and I tend to be a "no harm, no foul" kinda guy.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-18 08:04
'Opera' is the plural of 'Opus'.
It's a good key to get yourself out of trouble if you take a C# or C in the 'wrong' hand followed by a D# or Eb, and I use both at will. Probably as all oboes have a LH Eb, in flat keys it's always best to use the LH Eb on them, but on clarinet all the little finger keys are duplicated.
Just be sure you get the right configuration if a G#/Ab crops up as well, as in the Saint-Saens sonata - Eb Db up to Ab Gb crops up, so Eb has to be taken with the LH, Db with the RH and Ab with the LH. Without the LH Eb you'll have to slide the RH pinky from Eb to Db in order to take the Ab with the LH.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-11-18 16:31
Boy do I hate this key. It's not the additional resistance to the spring tension but the physical presence of the key. Since I tend to slide more in fast situations the key just winds up being in the way.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-11-19 23:44
Never used it, never needed to. It's plenty easy enough to slide when on occasion that it's needed.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2005-11-20 11:49
It may not be "easy" to slide, but it is definitely "second nature" for players who learned to play without the LH Eb. After all these years without one, I am having a hard time getting myself to use it on my C clarinet. I had to start from scratch, think where it I want to use it, and work through exercises to gain facility with it. Even so, I still find myself sliding fingers more often than not.
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2005-11-20 15:22
O have one but am thinking of getting it taken off as it seems like another thing that can go wrong! it is making a hell of a racket at the moment and i don't ever use cos of this..... an overhaul would obviously help but it always seems the first bit of the instrument to start being noisy!!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-20 15:55
Yeah, my LH Ab/Eb keys rattle a bit as well (on my Selmers).
I like the way Leblanc use the same size pillars for ALL the LH levers, so the Ab/Eb key doesn't go off at a funny angle against the others either side of it (like Selmers), and at worst clatter at both rest and open positions with the other levers - it takes a bit of crafty bending for it not to touch the others.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-20 20:35
Neil.clarinet wrote:
"She seemed to be suggesting that it is sometimes left out because it can make the corresponding right hand key too heavy. "
I think that in almost every model where the left G#/D# lever is fitted, there is no pin linkage, so the right hand fingering moves the key quite independently of the left hand's "lever".
In these cases, what the woman says is quite incorrect.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-20 22:57
Adding to Gordon's message
The Ab/Eb key is already a heavy sprung key being a closed key, and if anything, the end of the standard LH Ab/Eb lever is probably touching the underside of the projecting lug soldered to the pad cup by weight alone (the touchpiece side being heavier), so if anything it should have little or no influence on the spring tension at all, and if there is any influence it will possibly make the Ab/Eb key feel lighter, and definitely not heavier - or not even noticeably different if it's removed.
I'm still in favour of the LH Ab/Eb lever, no matter what design as long as it works.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-21 03:58
".... as long as it works"!!!
So many designs of the linkage from the lever to the key are appalling!
Either so that an extremely small area of silencing material is quickly chewed through or pushed off the key, &/or so that the lever is even at risk of slipping out form under the lug attached to the key cup, and jamming the entire mechanism in the middle of playing, &/or so there is a large amount of friction, &/or so that the lever binds against other levers.
This lever is far too often an obvious afterthought, rather than being designed in CONJUNCTION with the other levers.
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Author: chipper
Date: 2005-11-21 15:48
Interesting thread. I have a few C# to Eb sequences in the music I'm learming and thought it was just being a new player that made these difficult. I thought to read ahead and use alternate fingering was the solution but cannot read ahead that well yet and so have been marking the score (in light pencil, of course) to remind me to use the LH C# where necessary. Still, though, since it doesn't come naturally yet to switch from mu "normal" fingering to the Alternate fingering these passages are still an impediment to my playing. Practice, Practice, Practice is the answer.
C
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-11-21 16:27
I've played for years (since I started playing clarinet) on a clarinet without the left side Ab/Eb key (Vito Eb then Buffet R13). Then I changed and played for years on a clarinet with the extra Ab/Eb, but never used it. Now my main clarinet again doesn't have the extra key.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-21 16:55
PRO:
- It eliminates (almost) all of the "you can't get there from here" situations. Without it, there are a few patterns (e.g., the Ab major broken arpeggio) that are simply impossible.
- When well designed, it doesn't increase the pressure needed to operate the right hand key.
- It adds very little weight.
- You don't have to use it.
CON:
- In most designs, it forces a split between the left low E and low F# keys, increasing finger movement and interfering with sliding. (The newer Buffet design solves this problem by mounting the key outside the others and bending it into an S shape.)
- Every major player (except Gino Cioffi) got along perfectly well without it.
- There's nothing unethical about sliding. It's part of what you learn. Bassoonists do it all the time, and violinists and keyboard players live by sliding.
- It adds weight and complication.
- If it's positioned to be reached easily, it also is far enough up to interfere with (or at least pose a hazard to) use of the low E and low F# keys.
- If you get too used to it, you will reach for it on any new instrument.
- Impossible sequences are rare in actual music. If you come to one, you can always switch to the A clarinet.
In most cases involving the clarion Ab, you can use the alternate fingering, TR X X O | X X O. If it's too fast to slide, it's too fast to hear any dullness of tone.
A THIRD POSSIBILITY:
Kalmen Opperman, or possibly his repairman brother George, put the key just outside and below the left hand low F key. He mounted the F lever and the new one on a single axle (like the flute trill keys).
Ken Shaw
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-11-21 17:04
Ab Major Broken Arpeggio????
So........... your clarinet doesn't have a L.H. F/C key Ken? 
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-21 17:45
Ken,
I've just added a LH Ab/Eb key on the same axle as the LH F/C key as you mentioned to my plastic Yamaha, and this was done very easily without any major conversions or extra springs or pillars, and works well.
Similar to oboe low B/Bb mechanism and as you said, flute trills.
The only part I had to make was the new touch for the Ab/Eb as this needs to have a longer arm to clear the F/C touch. The existing touch and foot for the F/C were used, but the remaining barrels were hollowed out to fit a steel onto which was pinned (with 12BA screws) - the Ab/Eb lever running on a seperate barrel on the same steel.
Next step is adding the forked Eb on the top joint, I've got all the key parts but need to fit a chimney to finger 3 tonehole, and a vent between the chimneys to compensate for finger 3 closing it's hole when playing Eb/Bb as xox|ooo.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-11-22 01:03
To be honest, I've been trying to break my 30+ year habit of using the LH Eb key.
Today, right in front of my teacher, I slid my left pinky to get out of trouble. SIGH.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-22 01:39
I made the most of all the extra gizmos my Centered Tones (19/7) had from the word go - why not use them as they've taken the trouble to make them in the first place, and I've never looked back.
The only Eb key I never use is the cross Eb/Bb key on the top joint, and have never needed to use this key as there are plenty more useful alternatives on 19/7 and 20/7 systems.
But I wouldn't mind an alternative LH low Eb key, as fitted to full Mazzeos and Selmer Basset clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-11-22 01:41)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-22 01:50
Quote:
The only Eb key I never use is the cross Eb/Bb key on the top joint, and have never needed to use this key as there are plenty more useful alternatives on 19/7 and 20/7 systems. If you mean the sliver key, I agree, as I've never used mine. If you mean the fork Eb/Bb (xox|ooo) with the third ring, I used it for Bb/Eb trills, but now just tap the small pad just below the index finger to get these same trills.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-22 02:21
And I was glad to have the forked Eb (xox|ooo), it came in very handy on the Weber concerto where using the side Eb cleanly wasn't easy next to the Cs.
It comes in very handy in the 'Dance of the Polovtsian Maidens' solo as well (as a forked Bb) - but I'd imagine Reform Boehms can do this just as well, if not better.
I find long Eb4 (xoo|xoo) on my Series 9s is sharp, but the Bb is alright tuning-wise, unless it overblows to a slightly sharp G6 like it did in a solo on Saturday, where I knew it might do this and was ready to use the side Bb just in case this did happen. And that was (logically) following from an F (xxx|xoo) as well, maybe I was giving it too much welly which wouldn't be surprising as all the other players were meant to be playing at pp, but more likely playing mf.
Why is it that it's written 'Polovtsian', yet I keep hearing people say 'Polotsvian'?
Talking of which, they're playing it on the radio right now! Even better still, it's a version WITHOUT the choir drowning out the soloists/orchestra - it's nice to hear what's really going on!
I'll bung this on here as a reminder which version it is:
Herbert von Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Deutsche Grammophon 4746172
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-11-22 02:38)
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Author: D
Date: 2005-12-16 16:12
Apologies to those who are annoyed by resurecting old threads, I have been with internet for a few months so I am going through the backlog.
I have an alt Eb which I chose to have specifically because it is very useful when transposing. I can normally manage regular playing without it, especially if I have time to practice before hand (I am not in any demading groups!) but when I am trying to transpose as well then it is a godsend.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-16 16:31
When you have to do a lot of playing in extreme keys (think Broadway shows) that is near-sightreading, you learn to appreciate the alternative keys added to the "full Boehm" horn really quick.
Me, well I like it because it gives better consistence across all three "normal" clarinets (Bb, A and Bb bass, although I haven't performed on the A in many, many years). All three have the Eb lever (and I've been using it on soprano and bass since the 1960's, thank you very much), all three have the wonderful articulated G# key (which also offer consistency with saxophones, thank you papa Sax for coming up with the idea), and so it's less of a mental burden to make the switch from one to another.
The Eb key (the coupled sliver key on the upper joint with extra ring) I didn't use as much (no equivalent on the bass, either) in the past, but these days I find it of more and more use in the keys in the second half of the scale and arpeggi studies book. I have to "sort of" think about it before I will use it, but it has come in handy now and then.
One key that I never find myself using is that same sliver key on the upper joint. This is one of the original keys from the old six key clarinet, but there are so many better ways of venting those notes that it just never gets used except in altissimo passages (and I don't do many of those any more). Plus, with big hands (such as those with which I have been cursed), it's just in the damn'd way. In some cases (Eb playing), I've gone so far as to wedge the key shut or wax the hole shut, just to avoid tripping it accidentally. For a permanent solution, you can go the bass clarinet route and have it (and the corresponding keys on the lower joint) trimmed back to stubs that stay out of the way unless wanted.
As always, few get the opportunity to try any of these options save the auxiliary Ab/Eb lever for themselves, since they are not exactly thick on the ground. It's nice to see that there's at least one person who agrees with me on the subject, even if that person does live in back side of the moon Idaho...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-16 17:27
I'he taken the tp joint cross Eb key off my bass, even the pillars.
On my Eb I've padded and corked this key, but bent the touch right down so it won't open at all, but can be bent back if needed (when I sell it on which won't be for a long time).
But on full Boehms it's useful to keep the top joint rings at a suitable height so assembly is easier - it saves the cork (or felt on mine) on the link getting torn, and you don't have to hold the rings closed during assembly, the linkage glides tgether.
But again I still maintain the LH Ab/Eb lever is worthwhile having.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-12-16 18:30
Interesting [old] thread, got me curious, not annoyed. I just checked my two favorite 'Alberts', a Pruefer (Oehler) and a Moennig Bros and *both* have the Eb lever (between long B/E and F#/C#). I'm so used to using it, I don't even think about it any more. The lever on both instruments has a flat spring... hence, No Rattle and it's the most Trouble-Free key in the whole works 
Therefore: How difficult would it be to simply install a flat spring? The result would be almost the same as a side Trill key. There is no groove for the spring to ride in but, if you're a purist, that shouldn't be difficult to manage either.
None of my student instruments (Bundys - Vitos) has the Eb key :|
With this view in mind, I too would cast my vote with Brenda FOR the Eb key on *all* instruments. Alternate Key Users... unite!!!
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-16 18:52
You'd just need to drill a 1.1mm hole in the key and tap it out to 12BA to fit a flat spring, and mill a slot in the body if there isn't enough clearence for the flat spring as it goes under the key barrel.
Easy on German or simple systems but not so easy on Boehms - the key barrels of the other LH levers are in the way for a flat spring. The flat spring is screwed into the lower end of the lever but the free end has to be nearer the touchpiece end, just north of the key barrel for it to work, and the other key barrels are in the way. And thinning the pillars at their bases by milling a slot through them for the flat spring to run will make them weak.
Best to leave the LH Eb unsprung, you do need double action between the end and the Eb key, and a flat spring will only make the double action more noticeable - like the LH F#/C# lever on a Selmer 10G - you need some double action to be sure the pad closes on this arrangement - if the levers are pinned through the key arms then it doesn't matter.
And that's what older Selmers (K series etc.) have - an arm from the Eb key and the Eb lever has a pin on the end, but this is an expensive way of making this connection.
Howarth clarinets have a nylon pin connecting the Eb lever directly to the Eb pad cup though, and it's a simple but effective solution. I can't find any detailed pictures, but basically it's a flattened out doughnut shape piece soldered onto the pad cup and the nylon pin (Buffet type) from the Eb lever runs inside it.
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