 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2005-04-29 17:21
From a rank beginner (so please corect any implicit wrong assumptions):
When a conductor moves his arm/baton "down" for the downbeat, when is the exact moment one should start making a note "on the beat"?
When he starts moving, when he stops, or in between - halfway?
(This is akin to the problem of calling up the "time" on the telephone and being told "at the tone, the exact time is... beeeeeep" Is the truly exact time at the start of the finite length "beeeeeep", at the end, or what?)
Or are things not this exact, in real musical life?
JDS
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-29 17:48
It depends entirely on the particular conductor -- you'd have to ask him/her. Some prefer that the group respond at the exact end of their 'down' motion, some prefer that you respond when seeing the 'rebound', or maybe at an intermediate position. There's no law on the subject.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-04-29 18:51
Not a dumb question at all! There seem to be cultural differences as to when the attack comes in relation to the "ictus" of the downbeat. If you watch videos of Karajan and the Berlin Phil, there seems to be an incredibly long lag between the point of his beat and the orchestra's entrance.
Christian Eschenbach said, in response to a question about his leadership of the Schlesvig-Holstein Festival (a multinational youth orchestra), that when he gave his downbeat the Americans and Brits played right on the beat, the Germans and Austrians played after a delay, and the French and Italians had already played! There's no right or wrong to this--simply reflects the differences in the way orchestral players are trained in different countries!
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2005-04-29 20:25
Short answer: Whatever makes that particular conductor happy.
This is related to the Christmas tree lights at a drag strip.
You have to start before the baton reaches bottom for the sound to happen when the baton reaches bottom (if this is what the conductor wants). If you wait to see it reach bottom and then react, you are late.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-04-29 20:36
Conductors vary. Everyone is taught that at the bottom of the downbeat, that's where the beat is. However, not all conductors follow that traditional pattern so closely. I was fortunate enough to play under Arthur Fiedler on one occasion, and he conducted in circles. So there you go - no downbeat. You'll find out pretty quickly what the conductor wants, as others have said.
Follow the group.
Sue Tansey
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-04-30 01:46
It also depends on the style of the piece. Playing ahead, on, or behind the beat can invoke a different feel. For example, when our conductor says "Play German," we play a bit behind the beat, among other things.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-30 01:58
The black and white answer is: Where the first ictus lands after the prepatory motion.
The purpose of the "ictus" in conducting is to convey to the musician where the conductor intends the beat to lie. In an ideal world the conductor will motion a prepatory beat or rebound "in time" so that you will know where to expect the first "real" ictus.
Also in an ideal world, as an audience member you should be able to interpret what the first sound would be like from a group just by the way the conductor does the prepatory motion to the first ictus.
Reality varies as people have said repeatedly (whilst avoiding much of an answer that could help you in your request). But reality is that you will most likely have rehearsed with the conductor and most likely the conductor will do something at least similar to what they have done in rehearsal. So you would probably have some inkling as to what tempo and articulatory style the conductor is expecting and you are merely waiting for that motion away from the initial beat and back...in time.
It is not a dumb question at all. I'm just surprised (not really) that people have a such a hard time assuming the question is as simple as it sounds and give you the simple answer.
A good rule of thumb to help facilitate ensemble cohesiveness with new groups, attempt to play directly on the ictus until this proves more destructive than helpful.
Take care.
[Edit: Okay, okay...you have a number of varying situations where the pick-up may be an eighth within a quarter-note time where you would have to interpret where the subdivision of the beat is. Along with and other than that, read the above. ]
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
Post Edited (2005-04-30 02:04)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-04-30 02:50
Or are things not this exact, in real musical life?
- was the original question.
Implicit in the answers was the knowledge of conducting patterns and how they are designed to be used. In practical life, not all conductors follow those rules. I think everyone who answered suggested the person spends some time getting to know his own conductor's style and becoming part of the ensemble. It maybe should be a simple answer, but realistically it is not.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-30 10:29
"Or are things not this exact, in real musical life?
- was the original question."
Actually, "When a conductor moves his arm/baton 'down' for the downbeat, when is the exact moment one should start making a note 'on the beat'?" was the question.
The question, "Or are things not this exact, in real musical life?" is an afterthought.
"From a rank beginner...." <-- gives musical experience context. That he is even asking the question supports this revelation.
"(so please corect any implicit wrong assumptions)...." suggests that John is old enough to realize the possibility and liklihood of having misunderstandings about it--To me, at least.
John gives an example from something else he likens to his understanding of where to play (suggests the experience of age) and then your suggested question, "Or are things not this exact, in real musical life?"
My tiff here is more about getting the most from this wonderful resource. People focused more on the implied experience suggested by his ending question rather than the initial, simple question the thread was most basically about.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people reply and they offer very insightful information and experiences that others can take and use as their own (and his latter question invites this). I just wish people paid more attention to the gist of what people are asking here and offer up the straight shot first so the poster can begin with what they came for, satisfied...and then take in as much of the other as suits them.
I have other interests that very often take me to other boards like this one and cannot tell you how disheartening it is to wade through posts, for sometimes days when I needed the answer as soon as possible, looking for the "straight shot" answer so I could get back to what I was doing while I was still excited about it. While well intended and appreciated, less than fulfilling. (I'm sure many women can understand that statement. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) )
This case does not seem to have that kind of urgency, but the tendency to give the straight shot first is often weak here and I often feel for the newbies (I know John is not a newbie).
I will not reply to this anymore. Someone else can have the last word. I was not my intention to derail the thread.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-30 12:17
Well, one learns something new every day here. I'm not sure what the ictus is but having played under a number of conductors over the years I can say that with some they just somehow seem to convey to you when to start and with others it takes a while to learn their style.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-04-30 12:50
Most conductors in my experiences seem to prefer the bottom [ictus?] of the down beat and the best convey it quite well. Playing bass cl, and in partic. with a "harder" reed,, I find I have to start [attack] a bit sooner to "make it on the beat" ?establishing the standing wave??" . I recall one session of the Mich. State Band when Leonard Falcone "got tired" of us "lagging the beat", and brought out his baritone horn, making the room RING, teaching us HIS good D B attacks. AH, in memoriam tenere. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-04-30 13:45
I maintain that this is not a simple "where can I purchase a new ligature" question, with a single answer. That is why the answers have included individual experience - because, whether it is technically "correct" in terms of the ictus or not, conductors' beat patterns do vary. It is the reality of the situation which needs to be conveyed in order to answer the question.
I really don't think it's necessary to be negative about the posters.
Sue Tansey
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-30 13:53
Robert...are you the Robert Moody of Skoda lasky fame? No option to write direct on your website.
Bob Draznik
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-04-30 14:23
LarryBocaner wrote: "when he gave his downbeat the Americans and Brits played right on the beat, the Germans and Austrians played after a delay, and the French and Italians had already played! There's no right or wrong to this--simply reflects the differences in the way orchestral players are trained in different countries!"
--which coincides what I teach; there are fundamentally 3 correct spots to play a beat, 1) before 2) on 3) and after --- the subdivision entrances are fractional. And I believe there's a big difference between the mechanics of reading and playing notes on a page, the "technical" aspects that produce those sounds and the actual making of music and ensuing "experience".
As for the conductor I find they serve 2 purposes 1) a metronome 2) forced inspiration. I personally don't or have ever needed some elitist Leopold clown waving his arms about looking like an octopus that fell out of a tree to do my job. I routinely ignore them, watch and follow only to the degree I don't blow my entrances and stick out like a sore thumb. However, I tell my students to always do what the conductor says, never question him while he's on the podium (unless he invites opinion) and support him publicly among the rest of the members of the ensemble. Teamwork doesn't have to honest, but it must be successful. v/r Ken.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-04-30 14:54
Apart from the conductor, the wind section should be breathing together as well. This way, there are two indications of when to start a note, what the tempo is, what dynamic you'll play, and the attack of the first note. Plus, you'll all play more consistently together.
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2005-05-01 18:05
I was taught that the ictus is the exact moment when the point of the baton changes direction from down to up. I don't believe that it is a matter of playing ahead of or behind the ictus since most conductors become sloppy over time and their ictus is no longer at the point of the baton. We often follow the conductor's little finger or wrist or even elbow if that is where the beat is.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-05-01 18:14
Sorry Bob...not the Robert Moody of that fame. ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
Not sure if you were kidding about the ictus thing. For those who are not aware, the ictus is that point in the pattern that is supposed to represent the beats in the pattern the conductor is showing. Imagine a table or shelf in front of the conductor and if they were to begin a motion with the intention of you making a sound when their stick hits that table/shelf, the point where it makes contact in the pattern would be the ictus.
Hope that helps.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
Post Edited (2005-05-02 11:18)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-05-01 23:15
Robert Moody wrote:
[ stuff ]
Robert, the two moderators of this BBoard, GBK & Mmyself, let threads go where they will most times. The BBoarders here need no scolding from you; they get enough comments - in private - from the two of us.
BTW - the men and women I work with are the tops in their professions. I don't single out either in my work. Neither should you.
If someone wants a straight (and factual) answer fast, the library reference section is still oftentimes the right place to go. Most of what we get here are opinions, not facts, and sometimes we get opinions that are stated as fact.
And sometimes what's stated is just downright wrong.
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Author: chicagoclar
Date: 2005-05-02 07:10
It really does depend on the conductor. At our university, our director wants sound on the ictus. So we have to be ready. On the contrary, the local symphony plays behind the conductor. When one of our horn players subbed for their orchestra he had a problem on the first note he played. The conductor gave a downbeat and he played. Everyone else came in slightly after. He learned quickly, and never made that mistake again. Just watch and observe, and you'll figure it out.
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