 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-04-24 00:22
Okay, today at contest was not fun for me. I did solos on Bass, Alto and Eb... and to my surprise, got the best rating on my Eb. All three judges commented that I have rhythm issues... I did know this previously, I really can't count. Not at all. One judge suggested I carry a metronome with me and that I not tap my foot... And this was after all my practice was done with a metronome. How can I improve my rhythm? The judge said I would be a pretty good player if I could only count.
<So I can't spell either....:-D>
BCG
Post Edited (2005-04-24 12:24)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-24 00:38
What is your private teacher doing to help you? ...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-24 01:22
[ A rule on this BBoard since day one has been - if someone misspells a word - do not go and point it out. Just answer with the correct spelling in your response.
There's a lot of reasons behind that rule. Please do not violate it, even in jest.
Mark C. ]
Try recording yourself and play it back while following the music. The metronome won't help you much really at all as it doesn't give feedback. You need to hear what you are playing wrong and then fix it. You must count all the time - don't rely on instinct as you don't have it developed yet from what feedback you are getting.
Play with midi accompaniments such as the smartmusic program and LISTEN to what you are doing. Be critical of yourself to the point of thinking at all times about the rhythm and you will start to develop accurate rhythmic skills.
Use the metronome to get a starting beat and speed of the piece.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-24 01:24
Also, play both baroque and jazz to help get more advanced at rhythm. I teach jazz to my clarinet students to give them the skills that jazz offers in terms of rhythmic development.
Good book to try is Reading Jazz by J Rizzo published by Warner.
Get the trumpet book as that is the right range (no clarinet book made). It comes with a play along cd and is good for both technique and rhythm.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-04-24 01:27
BCG,
While having and using a metronome is the right way to practice, if you do not put the correct notes on the correct beat, little improvement is possible.
My guess is that your counting is fine but you are having trouble placing the notes in the right place in each measure. Try to figure out what rhythm patterns are giving you trouble and practice those with scales (you know the pitch so you can focus on the rhythm).
When you become comfortable with easy ones, begin to combine different patterns at the same time, and see what happens. But as GBK says, what does your private teacher say?
Be sure to start slowly.
HRL
Post Edited (2005-04-24 01:28)
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-04-24 02:37
BCG
You're not alone. Allow me to share:
In ANY audition, group performance, etc no matter how well one performs; musicanship, phrasing, nuances, etc., if they have problems with rhythm, it's the first thing that shows and is picked up by the committee.
example:
Early in his career, Leon Russianoff had such rhythm problems, to the point of personal embarrassment, that he almost gave up clarinet. To a point, it was almost stage fright for him.
He made up his mind that he would conquer rhythm......and conquer it he did. In his teachings, he was fanatical about rhythm. Back in the 60's, one auditioned for lessons. invaribly the 'hotshots' warmed up reeling off cadenzas, etc. He'd say yeah, yeah, set the metronome at 50 or 60 and say play a C major scale. Halfway thru he'd stop the player, say you need lessons, you can't count.
Leon wrote 2 volumes of Clarinet Method (400+ pages). I can't begin to share the number of pages, chapters (he refers to them as lessons) that deal with rhytm/counting. And, this is throughout the books in any exercise or study.
Metronome, Metronome, Metronome. It will become your best friend.
DON'T PLAY........COUNT OUT LOUD
count without playing, then count and play. ALWAYS subdividing.
1 &a, 1234, 123, 123123, 123456, 1234123, 1231234, etc etc.
DO IT SLOWLY........as slow as it takes just to get a grasp on it.....WHEN YOU THINK YOU PERFECTED IT, THINK AGAIN, BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T.
In doing so, your legato, technique and sureness of playing will improve. Count ALoud always with a metronome.
It's very tedious and hard work but it's a fundamental that HAS to be addressed, overcome and mastered. It demands patience and discipline, and done meticulously and consistently.
BTW, you won't find his books. They've been out of print for 20+ yrs. There are numerous other books that address rhythm. It's a matter of applying it in daily exercises.
As Leon shared, if you don't have total control, you have nothing to lose but your dignity.
now go practice and count aloud
regards
dennis
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-04-24 02:58
Are you able to correctly put a pencil stroke above each of the beats in the measure? And then are you able to clap the rhythm as written? Do you count out loud, counting the first beat as the stronger one (ONE and Two and Three Four)? Those are preliminary steps that a teacher can check for you before you take up your instrument to play.
This may not be enough though. Once you start playing perhaps thinking of getting the right fingerings and reading the notes adds too much confusion to your thinking, and throws off the timing that you would otherwise be able to get. The metronome would be useful only if you have someone (like your teacher) sit with you and make sure you're sticking with it, even slowing you down to a ridiculous pace to make sure the timing is absolutely correct before gradually increasing the tempo. (Have you ever heard of some hot shot young players toss off long 16th-note runs, but they can't play the same passage slowly? Not a good thing.)
Unfortunately some beginning students are taught to tap their foot to the eighth note instead of the quarter note, a useful tool but for much later on. Then when they see a quarter note, knowing that it represents one beat, they'll play it as an eighth without giving it another thought, even if it comes just after the eighth notes! This practice of counting the eighth notes is especially interesting to watch when a group of triplets comes up. You need to have a teacher or experienced musician listen carefully to your playing to catch you at this.
Also, having a teacher watch your foot as you play could reveal what's going on inside your head. I've seen a student start playing their piece just fine, but within a measure or two BOTH the toe and the rhythm get thrown off. We've had to spend some intense time in lessons just working on this. I don't remember having this problem myself - but then when growing up we always moved to music and I had dance lessons. The rhythm was internalized, personally I feel it somewhere in the gut. The student doesn't dance and never did, the problem isn't licked yet, so it'll be interesting to read what others have to suggest.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-04-24 05:35
I can't count, neither.
I'm doing two things to help me improve.
First,
I transcribe stuff that bugs me into Finale Notepad. Notpad is a free program you can download from
http://www.finalemusic.com/
When you set up the music file, you specify the time signature; and when you have your computer play it, you can set the tempo. The computerized playback is perfect, mechanical, and you can voice it to sound "like" one of your clarinets.
Second,
I'm sitting in with a swing band at rehearsal. I sit next to a fellow even more mature than me; and he makes the complex (for me) rythms of the swing band seem simple. He's a tolerant guy and smiles when I miss an entrance.
Its really worth the rental fees for my sax, and the embarassment of being here tonite, while the better players are performing at a dance.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2005-04-24 08:09
What pieces are we talking about or, at least, can you describe the rhythms we're dealing with?
I agree especially with Brenda's last couple of points as a teacher. What I find often is not that the student doesn't or can't count, rather that they are counting but aren't sure how long the note should actually last.
Just realised this is what Hank said.
Anyway, slow work helps as it gives you time to divide your beat into the smallest type of note or rest in that phrase. If it has sixteenths in it, count sixteenths, ensuring you hold every note and rest for the correct number of sixteenths. In my early days, I found this especially useful playing jazzy or classical syncopated rhythms. In fact I still have to do it sometimes when teaching a big band student a funk-type chart.
After a not-very-long time, you'll start recognising instantly the rhythms you've worked on, in the same way that, years ago, you no longer actually had to count eighth notes because your brain played them automatically on the correct count.
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-04-24 12:34
I don't have to opportunity to work with a private instructor, because the closest one would be about 45 miles away, and I don't have time to make that a regular trip.
Thanks for all the great advice though! I'll definately use it.
As for what types of music I was playing, it didn't really matter, because I was messing up rhythmically everywhere. I would make a group of quarter notes too slow, and then would blow through a run (one judge mentioned sub-divion of my runs would help... i really did try to do that though). I sometimes tend to play slow parts too slow and fast parts too fast...
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-04-24 12:53
I'm still rowing this very same boat...
Performing in front of judges is VERY different from performance for an audience, however. I wonder if you may have been a bit keyed up for this?
Here's a leading question - in ensemble playing, do you watch the conductor?
In playing longer runs at tempo, my conductor has often said that we should lay out if it's problematic, or just aim for the topmost note.
If you're playing the Bass parts, I can't see how pattin' a foot will hurt.
Perhaps it needs to be subtle, but it can help carry things along.
I certainly tap a toe when playing Bari sax.
From the number of responses you have received, it sounds to be a universal problem in dealing with this, most fundamental aspect. Others have conquered this, and so shall we!
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-04-24 18:23
I notice that I tend to rush. In my solo, Concertino, there are many fast runs and I tend to rush them towards the end. I was thinking and asking myself why I rush these when most of the time I have very solid rhythm. I realized that my mode of thinking during those passages had been, "Get through this and fast. I want to get outta here!" I was so scared of those passages that I simply just wanted to be done with them. If you think about it in a different mindset such as, "Make this dancing and flowing:fluid." then, at least for me, the rhythm was much more accurate and I didn't rush.
Also, listen to your accompanist. During parts where you are resting, interlize the beat. That will set you in the mode of what you are about to play and should help you.
And like others have said, do subdivide when you are learning. And start out by learning SLOWLY. On our All-State music, my teacher has me subdivide everything into eighth notes when I am learning it. Then a couple weeks before tryouts, she has me play it to the beat. By then, the subdivision should be nailed into my mind and then it helps the piece become more fluid when counted to the quarter note.
Oh! Smart Music and Finale Notepad are huge blessings! You can even transcribe the piece into Finale and then transfer it to Smart Music. Smart music will keep the beat for you and you can have it play along with you. You can even record yourself and listen to it to see if you are on the beat. I learned my solo freshman year by myself and with the help of Smart Music. I got a I at State. Also, you can email your Smart Music recordings to your high school teacher and have them listen to them and get feedback from them.
If you just get off the beat during auditions because you are nervous, you should know this: The judge WANTS you to do good. They are cheering for you. No judge wants to give out bunches of II's and III's. No judge finds pleasure in giving out those ratings, unless they are seriously messed up. So just think that the judge is on your side and know that they only want the best for you. That may help calm you down...
Hope I could help! Sorry if I didn't.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-04-24 23:26
You should read the other thread about tapping your foot.
Many have given you some great and thorough advice. I would suggest that you put down your clarinet and put on some music. Try to keep a steady beat by tapping your feet, snapping your fingers, trading off parts of your body. Then subdivide the beat. Then try to do both at once, for example quarter notes being tapped with your toes and eighth notes tapped by your hands. I really believe that unless you can internalize the beat and perform it with your body, no amount of analysis is going to help. This is why drummers can do what they do.
It's good that you are aware of the problem, and you'll get it straightened out because you're trying to do so. Good luck.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-04-25 02:42
If a private instructor is so far away, wouldn't there be a family friend or a local musician closer to your home who'd be able to help you with rhythm? You don't need a clarinet player for this, you just need someone who's good at their timing - maybe a drummer could give you a couple of hours at the drums and teach you what he/she needs to know. That could actually be a major boost, to start thinking outside the "clarinet box". How about dance lessons? Any Cubans or other Central Americans nearby who could teach you Latin dance? Now there's rhythm!!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-04-25 03:37
For subdivision, try this:
(1 2 3 4 are four sixteenths of a beat in this example)
Rather than thinking
1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1
Try thinking of how you will play the first note into the second, and the second back to the first of the next beat.
Effectively,
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1
Putting the emphasis on the 234 and how they get to the next 1 should help ensure that they will land on said 1 properly.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Snowy
Date: 2005-04-25 03:43
Another helpful hint from one who knows how difficult it can be.
Get onto http://www.sibeliusmusic.com, download the scorch plugin for your web browser if you have not already done so, and count along with some of the scores there. It can be fun as well as educational.
Snowy
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2005-04-26 01:12
An excellent workbook that you can use without a teacher: Rhythmic Training by Robert Starer published by MCA.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-04-26 01:33
OMG! I can't count either. Maybe it's a low clarinet thing. :P
See, I can count rhythms when I sing them out loud. But give me a clarinet, and I suck. It's a very weird disease.
I haven't been able to fix it, I've been playing for 12 yrs and still haven't fixed it. :( Not that there isn't hope, I think that I just can be lazy at times and not be able to play some rhythms.
Some things that help me, singing the rhythm if I continue to play it wrong. Then maybe listen to a recording of the piece to see how it goes. If I have super problems, my teacher sings the rhythm to me. That usually goes when I am sight reading at a lesson and haven't been able to sit and count it to myself.
--Contragirl
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2005-04-26 04:16
If there is no clarinet teacher available, is there a percussion instructor available? Perhaps a local marching band (yes, I used the "M" word) has a drum line clinician. If so, take a few lessons and have him/ her tap out the rythms from your clarinet pieces that are challanging you.
I am in a community band directed by a drummer. His insights into rhythm have done much for me.
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Author: alto_and_bass_clarinetist
Date: 2005-04-26 22:13
Eh, I can't count rhymically either, but an exercise that helps is counting in pure sixteenths, though it gets a bit weird around whole notes held for suspended periods of time... Well this usually helps [me] with those fast runs. Sometimes with a more complicated piece I'll count in 32nd notes, though I do tend to skip a few numbers here and there... I'm not quite sure why...
1, e, +, t, 2, e, + t, 5, +, e, e --?!
Huh, maybe it is a low clarinet thing.
P.S.: I would analyze those written rhythms too, sometimes you get errors. I got a copy of Mozart's K. 622 from my clarinet teacher, and it turns out that all of the sixteenth notes were supposed to be eighth notes... Well, it happens, esp. with handwritten music.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-04-27 06:11
My rhythmic problems were helped by the program Rhythm Ace. I believe it's still around. It grades your accuracy. There are other similar programs that I've had my kids use as well.
You tap the rhythm shown on a computer key against a click track and it tells you how accurate you are and can be very picky.
http://www.formusictechnology.com/productinfo.asp?id=430
I don't know anything about the particular seller listed above, but google found them.
Post Edited (2005-04-27 06:12)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-04-27 07:24
I remember when I was about 6 years old and came to audition for lessons with a clarient teacher (she had a lot of students so said only if I'd show some talent she will take me). The only thing we did in my audition is she sang rhythms, and I had to repeat after her. I never had rhythm problems (but I had a lot of other problems!).
It sounds to me like you need to learn how to feel the beat. I found a good way to do this is improvise with singing. You don't have to sing exact pitches, but put a metronome on, or even better a bass line or something musicial. Then just sing (improvisation, not something written) A LOT.
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-04-27 21:25
Well, many of you have suggested using percussionists... problem is that I live in VERY rural Minnesota. I define a "big" town as having a population of 6,000. We also don't have community bands. But, I will take some time to see if there is anyone around that could help.
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The Clarinet Pages
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